Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cornerstone Christian School (Camarillo, California)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (NAC) JBsupreme (talk) 08:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Cornerstone Christian School (Camarillo, California)

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Contested prod. An apparently thorough search by several editors has produced exactly one independent reliable source about this particular small school [Note: There are other schools with very similar names, but in other places]. That one source is a tiny little blurb about a mishap in a chemistry lab. The remaining 'sources' are websites that the school operates directly or submits information to.

The argument in favor of keeping it is essentially "but we always keep high schools, don't we?" (the school is actually K-12) -- and, of course, we don't: all educational institutions must comply with WP:ORG, and mere proof of existence is not enough.

Having said that, I don't have anything "against" the school, and if anyone can turn up just two solid, independent secondary sources about the school, then I'll cheerfully withdraw this nomination... I just don't think that it can be done. (I certainly haven't been able to do it.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:50, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Mere proof of existence actually is enough in the case of inherent notability, and that's why we always keep high schools. You say, "of course, we don't", so I will ask an example of any high school article that was deleted.  I can't recall one in the last couple of years.  Perhaps there are other school articles that have been nominated in addition to this one, perhaps not, but to my knowledge, high schools do not have to pass a threshold of "two solid independent secondary sources", whatever that encompasses.  Mandsford (talk) 23:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you'd like to go read the actual guideline, which names the standards, and this page, which specifically rejects "But it's a ____" as an illogical and inappropriate rationale for keeping an article for which no good independent sources can be found. It happens that nearly every high school in North America can meet the quite minimal standards we require, but this particular small school doesn't seem to.  This AfD isn't about "high schools in general"; it's about whether this K-12 school, whose remarkably limited independent sources allow us to say only that (1) it existed in 2004 and (2) there was a minor mishap in the chemistry lab, has met our actual standards.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Notability (organizations and companies) is the guideline to look to on this one, as Notability (schools) never gained any consensus. I'm not seeing any reliable sources to back up notability, or anything to indicate anyone has taken notice of the school. The Articles for deletion/Common outcomes even points out that if there's a conflict between that page and current guidelines, the guidelines apply, it also expressly points out that "We always keep these articles" is a weak reason. The school might warrant a mention in the Camarillo, California article, but without any indication of notability doesn't merit a standalone article. -Optigan13 (talk) 23:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - this small (90 student) high school is really marginal. I need more reliable sources to confirm it is functioning. Bearian (talk) 00:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In answer to your question, it is.    .  Mandsford (talk) 01:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your efforts. WP:ORG actually requires that a school (or other local organization) get some notice outside of its immediate, local area.  Have you found anything outside of its hometown?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I never planned to do that to begin with.... Mandsford (talk) 03:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep I initiated this article based on the fact that all High Schools have been deemed to be notable. It is one of many high schools I am trying to initiate articles on.  This IS a high school, nobody is denying that.  The depth of importance of this High School, like many others, has yet to be determined.  What little one editor knows about a subject he is not directly associated with DOES NOT indicate what is there in totality.  The potential of the article could greatly increase when insider knowledge is added--I have contacted the school, as I do all schools I start articles on.  So far, its just an incomplete stub.  Before you delete an article about any high school;   Do you know what great programs or research is happening at this school?  Do you know who of "notability" might have already graduated from this school (in the last three decades)?  Do you know who of notability might graduate in the future?  Of course not.  All high schools are notable on that basis alone--all have the potential.  All are significant to someone, even outside their local area.  People move.  I find notable alumni as I research some of the most obscure high schools, which otherwise might be deleted if you held to non-commercial organization standards.  Look at wikipedia standards on schools--nobody can ratify a standard, which is why you have to drift off subject to find an excuse to delete the article.  Set the standard.  Keep High Schools.  Deleting an article is like death to its potential.  No new editor would be inspired to add to an article that doesn't exist.  What is the big deal with removing information from wikipedia that could be useful to the public?  What great damage can this do?  This isn't promotion or with commercial intent--its just a small school.  It is going to show up on somebody's resume. Because I raised an AN/I against the first administrator who improperly deleted this article without letting it pass through the AFD process, are you now feeling a reason to show me who's boss.  How dare I attack an administrator who improperly uses the delete privilege?  By request, I stopped pursuing action against that administrator.  Are you now protecting your own?  This shouldn't be about personal feelings or exhorting administrator power.Trackinfo (talk) 01:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I can appreciate your frustration, but please try to stay civil. If there is an administrator in this discussion, it makes no difference whatsoever as to its outcome.  The person who decides will be someone who hasn't participated in the discussion, and it will not take place until after seven days.  You are correct that this shouldn't be about personal feelings.  Mandsford (talk) 01:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Trackinfo, your comment here is a basically long list of WP:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. WP:ITSA high school and all high schools are always kept, it's WP:HARMLESS, it has WP:LOCALFAME, it might be famous in the future, it WP:INHERITED notability from a hypothetical alumnus...  and, of course, the idea that if it's deleted now for a lack of identifiable sources, that we'll never be able to re-create it later if the sources can be found.
 * You asked above for Wikipedia to "Set the standard." Wikipedia has set the standard:  It's at WP:ORG, which has included any and all types of educational institutions for three years.  Please, go read it, and come back here and tell us whether you think this school actually meets the long-standing standard.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm also concerned that "when insider knowledge is added" will lead to a issues of WP:Original Research. At this point I'm still not seeing anything that can be sourced to gets this past being a directory listing. -Optigan13 (talk) 02:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The point of using insider information is an insider would know WHERE the appropriate documentation of significance lies. This is not in respect of making stuff up or using something for commercial gain--we can edit that kind of content out.  But how might an outsider know a school was the first . . .  used as a test for . . .  had an alumni that created . . . And even if it doesn't, each school affects the education of its graduates.  If nothing less, it should be something that can credibly be looked up, so this isn't a fictitious South Hammond Institute of Technology.Trackinfo (talk) 05:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. The size of the high school isn't terribly relevant. Reliable sources exist to prove it exists and is at least marginally notable; using newspaper references to gauge notability is pretty silly. Significantly, it is accredited through the ACSI and through WASC. That's not a small task! tedder (talk) 01:33, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Tedder, can you give us independent sources that support this claim? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added the ACSI and WASC refs to the article. tedder (talk) 01:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. All high schools are notable. Taken literally, WP:ORG would do a great deal of damage by excluding many, many valid articles. - Eastmain (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Eastmain, can you show me a single guideline or policy page that actually says all high schools are notable? (I can provide a string of them that say the opposite, if you're interested in knowing what Wikipedia's actual guidelines are.)  WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep on the basis that all verifiably-existing high school articles invariably get kept. They may not meet WP:ORG, it may be one of the "arguments to avoid in deletion discussions", but guidelines are formed through consensus, and in this case there seems to be a comparably strong consensus that high schools are a special case and are kept. For that reason, it's not enough to bring a single isolated school article to AfD; it needs wider discussion than that. Holly25 (talk) 02:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Partial list of high schools closed as delete at AfD: Articles for deletion/Arbor View High School, Articles for deletion/Windward High School, Articles for deletion/Oak Hills High School, Articles for deletion/Keira High School, Articles for deletion/Collier High School, Articles for deletion/Dickinson High School, Articles for deletion/Keller Junior High School, Articles for deletion/Stearns High School, Articles for deletion/Castlehead High School, Articles for deletion/Airedale High School, Articles for deletion/Dysart High School
 * Some high schools closed as merge or redirect at AfD: Articles for deletion/Bellevue West High School, Articles for deletion/Ensworth High School, Articles for deletion/Union High School (Washington), Articles for deletion/Lake High School (Millbury, Ohio)
 * Partial list of high schools closed as no consensus at AfD: Articles for deletion/Amparo High School, Articles for deletion/Eirias High School, Articles for deletion/Calvary Christian High School, Articles for deletion/Edison high school, Articles for deletion/Clover Park High School, Articles for deletion/Florence High School (Alabama), Articles for deletion/Frisco Centennial High School, Articles for deletion/Leigh High School, Articles for deletion/Cory High School, Articles for deletion/Juanita High School, Articles for deletion/Fordson High School, Articles for deletion/Noblesville High School, Articles for deletion/Central High School, Articles for deletion/Klein ISD Vistas High School
 * Do you think we can drop the myth that articles about all verifiably extant high schools are "always kept" now, and get back to the question of whether this K-12 (not just a high school!) institution meets our guidelines? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You proudly point to this list as successful deletions as if it were an accomplishment? I popped on to a couple of these schools I am familiar with.  These are huge public schools.  You suggest these SHOULD be deleted?  (Or should have been deleted, because they were resurrected later)   We might as well delete all High Schools, which I think would be a horribly stupid idea.Trackinfo (talk) 05:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I appreciate (and I mean this sincerely) that you posted links to prior debates on nominations of high school articles, because it is useful in tracing the development of what has been a change in the common outcome. Whether for good or for bad, the trend in the last couple of years has been toward the outcome that high school articles tend to be kept, while junior high and elementary school articles are merged to an article about the school district.  Most high schools, like most radio stations and most unincorporated communities, would not meet the general notability guidelines.  But the consensus that has evolved over the last couple of years, described in WP:OUTCOMES, has been toward keeping rather than deleting those articles when they are nominated.  The reasons usually offered in debate for preferential treatment of a high school (the authority to grant a diploma to the locals and the importance of the high school as part of a community's identity) may not be as relevant for a private school, but my observation is that people are hesitant about deciding that the outcome should be different for non-public schools.  Ultimately, of course, the community decides what should be kept and what should be deleted, and I think that will be the case here as well. Mandsford (talk) 03:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It'd probably be better to say "most" schools are kept. In any case, it all seems pretty pointy to make a case for WP:ORG. tedder (talk) 03:07, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * All of the delete/merge/redirect results linked above come from 2007 or earlier (with the exception of one article that was merged in 2008 because it was a duplicate). A good number of those articles have since been recreated. When was the last time an American high school article was deleted outright? Zagalejo^^^ 03:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No, because none of those deletes are newer than 2007. The only merges newer than that are due to duplicate articles. It only proves the point that current consensus is against deletion of high schools, and that wider discussion than a single AfD, attracting a small sample of the community, is required before we start picking them off one by one. Holly25 (talk) 03:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Seriously, there is no ratified policy on schools. If you want to start picking off small schools just because they are small, you are opening up a huge can of worms--a giant gray area that will only create more controversy and unnecessary deletes.  Cut the crap.  Lets write up a policy on all High Schools--prove their legitimacy and accreditation and ""Keep"" them all.  Go ahead and have your fights about non-commercial entities if you wish, but don't drag unrelated standards onto a topic that has no policy just because you like to delete stuff.  WP is about information.  Nobody is questioning the credibility of the information here (for long--references keep being found).Trackinfo (talk) 05:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Um, there is a "ratified policy" on schools; it's WP:ORG. Educational institutions are plainly listed as being within its purview.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:55, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Would articles on sports results count for anything? There are several of those.,  Zagalejo^^^ 03:34, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, sports stories definitely count. It doesn't have to be just about academics.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:55, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep All high schools are notable. The sources provided by Zagelo, as well as sources such as this article from Ventura Country Star and this article from Los Angeles Times, can be used to source and expand this article. Cunard (talk) 07:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.