Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Counter-missionary


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Withdrawn by proposer. Withdrawn by proposer; clear consensus to keep updated article Avi (talk) 07:42, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Counter-missionary

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Does not really seem like a proper topic for an encyclopedia article. It starts out by saying "counter-missionary" (notice that it is not a noun as WP titles should be) is opposition to any missionary activity. Then it switches to efforts to convert Jews to Christianity. Other activities are not mentioned at all although there are many people who oppose missionary activities by, for instance, Christians to tribal groups in the Amazon, cults on college campuses, even Muslims in non-Muslim countries. To me it seems better to discuss Jewish anti-missionarism in the same article that discusses missionary activities targeting Jews, so that both sides are presented together for better neutrality Nomination withdrawn since there is a sincere effort to change the topic of the article.Borock (talk) 20:49, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * NOTE: The article has now been moved to a new name: Jewish views on missionaries and counter-missionaries to fit in and follow in a series like that, such as Jewish views on contraception; Jewish views on astrology; Jewish views on religious pluralism etc, etc, etc. IZAK (talk) 06:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Huh? The article is about Jewish views on missionaries (not counter-missionaries), isn't it? Jayjg (talk) 06:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The heading now includes both missionaries and counter-missionaries. IZAK (talk) 07:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As a fomer contributor to the Counter-missionary article, I think it should be either revamped OR merged with, and redirected to, the Missionary article. --Loremaster (talk) 23:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I can't really comment on the worthiness of the article topic for inclusion in Wikipedia.  The article is probably poorly named, per the nominators rationale.  It is really "about" counter-missionary efforts by Jewish groups against the missionary efforts by Christian groups (well, mostly).  Perhaps the article should be retitled accordingly, although I can't comment on whether this subtopic is notable.  As it currently stands, the article is largely sourced to the counter-missionary groups themselves, which are obviously not credibly independent of the subject.   Sławomir Biały  (talk) 14:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Sławomir, good suggestion to change the topic to clarify it. IZAK (talk) 06:28, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment because I can't think of any other clear way of headlining this comment. I personally think the material could be added to either the Missionary article or, potentially, the Jews for Judaism article, both of which seem to be closely related to this one. I have some reservations about the clear notability of this article as per WP:N, as well. Based on the Google news listings, it seems that the subject may well be notable enough, maybe, but, if it is, then if there are similar efforts in other religions the article would clearly benefit from material on them as well. John Carter (talk) 17:58, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi John, the article cannot be merged the way you say because it has enough material of its own and to merge it with the Missionary article would be a case of WP:SYNTH, and it cannot be merged with the Jews for Judaism article which is an organization and it's not the only one doing counter-missionary work against Christian missionizing of Jews. IZAK (talk) 06:27, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If the article is expanded along the lines you suggest in your last sentence, then I am concerned about the likely original research by synthesis that would result. If "counter-missionary" refers to a general concept, and there are third-party sources that address the general concept, then an article can be written around that general concept.  But, as seems to be the case, there are only sources about counter-missionary efforts of one kind or another, then it's probably not consistent with our mission to create an article that synthesizes those disparate sources.  That's why I suggested renaming the article.   Moving a part of the content to Jews for Judaism seems like an excellent suggestion though.   Sławomir Biały  (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep, or maximally merge with any content discussing the systematic opposition to missionary activity. JFW &#124; T@lk  02:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep because: (1) Given its clearer new title: Jewish views on missionaries and counter-missionaries, similar to others like it, it is devoted a serious topic. (2) This is a well-researched article that has adequate WP:RS and meets the requirements of WP:VERIFY. (3) Claiming that the article is too "one-sided" is not a reason to delete, but rather is a reason to improve it, which could be done if the nominator wanted to contact the relevant WP projects or editors who worked on it to ask for help. (4) This is a WP:NOTABLE topic of concern to Jews and Judaism as the articles many sources and links prove. (5) This article has been on WP since 2004 and many editors have worked on editing and improving it. The nominator is requested to withdraw this nomination and take it for further discussion at WP:TALKJUDAISM for improvement. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:21, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Huh? The article is about Jewish views on missionaries (not counter-missionaries), isn't it? Jayjg (talk) 06:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Right, see the updated title Jewish views on missionaries and counter-missionaries. IZAK (talk) 07:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. The contents obviously need to be improved, but the subject itself is notable, and gets many Google, Google book hits etc. Jayjg (talk) 06:28, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. IZAK's changes are a big improvement and should address the concerns the delete requestor had.  It's notable and has enough support for an article. Zad68 (talk) 13:13, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I withdrew the nomination after changes. I never objected to the information in the article, only the format in which it was presented.Borock (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep The context of the article was clearly Jewish groups that have been established for the express purposes of countering efforts by Christian missionaries. It should not be merged with Jews for Judaism since that would exclude other organizations with counter-missionary goals, such as Outreach Judaism and Aish HaTorah.  Also, as a generic topic, it could be expanded to organizations established to counter missionary efforts to other religions and by other religions (such as Islamic evangelism to Hundus), if such exists. --DeknMike (talk) 19:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.