Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cowboys-Vikings Rivalry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. SouthernNights (talk) 19:31, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Cowboys-Vikings Rivalry

 * – ( View AfD View log )

There is no demonstration of an actual rivalry between these two teams. The fans don't look forward to their matchups any more than those against any of their other non-divisional opponents, and any famous games between them can be covered in individual articles, provided notability can be satisfied for those. – PeeJay 02:35, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I can't find anything that even hints that this is a rivalry, much less a significant one. In fact, just about the only thing that talks about this pairing is "A brief look at Vikings/Cowboys history", a pretty bloodless description. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * BeanieFan11 found several sources. And I am sure a more comprehensive database of newspapers and magazines from the 1970s would turn up more. Rlendog (talk) 14:46, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete The Herschel Walker trade and that they both were activated as franchises around the same time is the only thing that could really make this a rivalry, but other than that, there's really not much to connect them as rivals otherwise.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 08:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Per others. Also, the prose content is mostly trivia.  Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 09:37, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Reading the entire debate, and seeing some reliable sources, I'm note sure whether I'll still prefer it to be deleted, so switching to neutral, but the prose still needs to be fixed. Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 15:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:21, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. No rivalry exists between these two teams.  This is evidenced by the lack of reliable sources establishing a rivalry.  Frank Anchor Talk 14:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC))
 * Changed to neutral in light of the new sources added by User:Rlendog and User:BeanieFan11. I still think that the term "rivalry" is overused when describing matchups in any sport, but the sources are present to establish there is (or at least was) a rivalry between these two teams.  My only objections to this page now fall under WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is not a valid deletion argument.  Frank Anchor Talk 14:45, 16 November 2021 (UTC))
 * Perhaps not now, but BeanieFan11's sources validate that a notable rivalry has existed. Rlendog (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Per others. This no longer a notable rivalry. If anything, this should redirected to this page.Spf121188 (talk) 15:23, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * From WP:NOTABILITYISNOTTEMPORARY: "Notability is not temporary; once a topic has been the subject of "significant coverage" in accordance with the general notability guideline, it does not need to have ongoing coverage." BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand this POV, but the rest of that part of the article states: "While notability itself is not temporary, from time to time a reassessment of the evidence of notability or suitability of existing articles may be requested by any user via a deletion discussion, or new evidence may arise for articles previously deemed unsuitable. Thus, an article may be proposed for deletion months or even years after its creation, or recreated whenever new evidence supports its existence as a standalone article." I'm simply thinking that this should be redirected to National Football League rivalries. It's nothing personal. Spf121188 (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm changing my vote to neutral, with the caveat that the sources that were presented, though valid, do stress that this rivalry was most prominent in the 1970's, yet the article itself almost exclusively highlights games from 1989-2021. There isn't anything wrong with this in principle, but I think the article just needs to be re-vamped to highlight the matchups during the 1970's. Just my opinion, but I will change my vote to neutral. Spf121188 (talk) 15:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * keep. A rivalry is worth keeping if notability exists which was proved in the first source. Rivalries don't have to be currently toxic; they can have historical clout like Brady-Manning. These teams have met 7 times in the playoffs (one of the most played NFL playoff match-ups) and have the Herschel Walker trade and Hail Mary as significant NFL cultural lore events associated with it (most NFL rivalry pages don't have any "lore" associated with). This was considered one of the best NFL rivalries in the 1970's. 3 of their last 4 games have been primetime games which means the NFL views the match-up favorably. I think if this page doesn't survive, than the discussion on AFD will be opened by me on Giants-Packers, Cowboys-Rams, Titans-Ravens, and Giants-49ers. All of these are equivalent to this - a non-divisional match-up with lots of historical match-ups and notability to back it up.    Jackmar1 Talk 14:50, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Minnesota-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:26, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:26, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. Here's what my search turned up: this from the Fort-Worth Star-Telegram; this from Inforum.com; this from the Austin American-Statesman; this from Daily Press; this from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram; this from The Missoulian; and this from CBSSports. I'm slightly leaning towards Keep but I'm not completely sure. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, in addition to what I listed above, here is another article describing the teams as "rivals", convincing me that this is a notable topic. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's more coverage from the Irving Daily News and here's coverage from the Delaware Morning News. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:24, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - They may not be particular rivals now, but they were in the 1970s (as evidenced by BeanieFan11's sources) when one of these two teams played in the Super Bowl almost every year and they played each other in the playoffs four times, including twice in the conference championship game and once in the Hail Mary game. Notability is not temporary. Rlendog (talk) 20:31, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Meeting several times in the playoffs is nice, but it is WP:OR in establishing a rivalry between the two teams. The sources provided do little in establishing a rivalry between the teams, compared to what is required by WP:GNG  Frank Anchor Talk 23:09, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There are multiple articles stating that this was a rivalry. That is not OR.  That is GNG.  These were the dominant NFC teams in the 1970s and anyone who was a football fan then knew they considered themselves rivals, as these articles (and I am sure there were others from 40+ years ago) establish. Rlendog (talk) 01:23, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There are not multiple articles stating that this is a rivalry. There are articles stating that the two teams were competitive in the 1970s, but that's because they were both two of the best teams in the NFC at the time. Whether there was any enmity between them has not been established, and whatever enmity did exist has definitely waned by now. As I said further down, the NFL has been going for so long that you're bound to find periods when any two given teams met on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they're actually rivals. The Vikings have had some notable games against the Seahawks in recent years (e.g. the Wide Left game), but that doesn't mean that the Seahawks and the Vikings are rivals, just like the Cowboys and Vikings aren't rivals either. – PeeJay 12:17, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "Enmity" is a very strong term and I think it is rare that even fierce rivals consider themselves enemies. I agree that the rivalry between the Cowboys and Vikings has waned, but that is irrelevant.  They were rivals for a period, as validated by reliable sources that literally call it a "rivalry", and the resulting notability of that rivalry is not temporary. Rlendog (talk) 13:07, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you think "enmity" is a strong term, I didn't mean it as such. Either way, as I said, if you create a rivalry article for the Vikings and Cowboys in 2021 based on a tenuous claim of rivalry in the 1970s, you could make a case for rivalry articles for pretty much any pair of teams in the NFL. The Vikings–Cowboys "rivalry" simply is not comparable to the Vikings–Packers or Cowboys–Eagles rivalries, or even those of the Vikings–Lions or Cowboys–Giants. – PeeJay 14:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I doubt you can make a case for rivalry articles about any pair of teams. For example, I am not convinced that the Eagles-Vikings rivalry article is notable.  Notable rivalries will generally be teams in the same division that play each other often, teams in the same geographic areas (e.g., Jets and Giants), or teams that are great at the same time and compete multiple times in the Super Bowl or to get to the Super Bowl (Raiders-Steelers, Cowboys-49ers).  Some of these are punctuated with particularly memorable games (Hail Mary for Cowboys-Vikings, Immaculate Reception for Raiders-Steelers, The Catch for 49ers-Cowboys) that help solidify the rivalry.  But if you could make a case for rivalry articles about any pair of teams then that wouldn't be a problem if it was backed up by enough reliable sources. Rlendog (talk) 21:29, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - Like Rlendong said, they may not be rivals now, but there were three dominant teams in the NFC during the 1970's, the Cowboys, Rams, and Vikings. these three would be in the hunt for the Super Bowl and would win their division almost every year. The Vikings were also on the receiving ends of two extremely import moments in NFL history in both the Hail Mary and the Herschel Walker Trade; both of which are so significant that they received their own articles on this website. So in short, I think this topic is very much deserving of its own article. Vinnylospo (talk) 8:55, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Those two incidents are significant, that's fine, but I don't think the sources listed above actually support the idea that the Cowboys and Vikings consider each other to be rivals; some of them are even basically the same article (from the Associated Press). They had a brief dalliance, but if you look back in the NFL's 100 years of history, you're bound to find stretches of "rivalry" between any two given teams. Notability may not be temporary (re: User:Rlendog), but you've got to establish notability first. The two incidents mentioned are notable and have their own articles, but the idea that meetings between the Vikings and Cowboys down the years constitute a rivalry is rather ludicrous to me. – PeeJay 21:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just responding to this, it seems its moving closer to 50-50 on keep vs delete but maybe still a slight preference in favor of delete. My only preference is that we let this run its course with the other pages being contemplated with AFD (Cowboys-Rams, Giants-Packers). The key distinction I am trying to make on those pages (because they are analogous to this page) is that we need consistency in whether a page should exist simply because of current heat (think Packers-Bears, Eagles-Cowboys) or whether lore / iconic NFL moments / 70's & 80's rivalries that happened decades ago can justify a page existing. In this match-up, the Hail Mary and Herschel Walker trade are iconic NFL moments. That may be a reason to have this page. It may not either but then we go down the discussion of deleting Cowboys-Rams too based on the same premise. The goal is to be consistent in how we evaluate these rivalries. Jackmar1 Talk 14:50, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This discussion needs to pertain to just the notability of the Cowboys-Vikings rivalry. Should other rivalries be considered candidates for deletion, an AFD can be drafted, but the discussions need to remain separate for each page. (Personally, I can think of a half dozen or so non-divisional “rivalries “ that could be potentially deleted but that is not relevant to the Cowboys-Vikings discussion)  Frank Anchor Talk 00:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "maybe still a slight preference in favor of delete" - all the delete !votes claim a lack of sources but were made before a number of reliable sources were uncovered or based on recentism or the current state of the article, so these aren't really based on policy. Rlendog (talk) 14:51, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Those sources claim that the Vikings and Cowboys were rivals once upon a time based on the fact that they were both competing to be the best team in the NFC, but there's no real claim of an *actual* rivalry. – PeeJay 15:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The reliable sources literally call it a rivalry. And here is another. I am not sure what distinction you are trying to make between a "rivalry" and an "actual rivalry" but even if there is a difference, the article refers to the "Cowboys-Vikings Rivalry," not to the "Cowboys-Vikings Actual Rivalry." Rlendog (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This most recent source has literally nothing to do with the two NFL teams, it pertains to a rivalry between two high school teams in California (nicknamed the Cowboys and Vikings). Frank Anchor Talk 15:51, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, even if this is a "real rivalry," isn't the purpose of this page to determine whether the rivalry was noteworthy enough to have its own page? I'm a little new to this in particular but that's what I've come to understand. The page notes itself that they've only played 33 games, so maybe this should be re-directed to this page? Spf121188 (talk) 16:23, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * - you are correct. I was careless with this source but that does not detract from the relevance of the others.  Our guidelines, WP:GNG in particular, set a standard for whether a topic is noteworthy enough to have its own page.  That is significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  And this rivalry satisfies that.  The fact that the rivalry was primarily strong in the 1970s rather than now is irrelevant.  The fact that they only played 33 games is not particularly relevant given the importance of some of those games that led multiple independent reliable sources to write about it as a rivalry. Rlendog (talk) 18:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand that PoV completely. One thing I'd like to add, is that if this page stays, it seems like it needs a bit of an overhaul. It's generally understood based on what I'm reading that the rivalry was at it's strongest during the 1970's, which is true. Most of the [|Memorable Moments] part of the article discusses games from 1989-2021, and is in some parts seems to have sensationalized wording, promoting certain players, such as "It was in many ways the introduction to the world of his talents given the stage of the game," referring to Randy Moss. It also needs several citations. Not disputing the raw content about the games, but it does seem to undercut the argument about this being a huge rivalry in the 1970's, since most of what's highlighted are in the decades following. I'm not trying to make this more difficult, just noting my thoughts on the matter. Spf121188 (talk) 18:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree it needs work but I think a conclusion need to be made on keeping vs deleting before someone puts any more time into it. Jackmar1 (talk) 19:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep per Seven 1970s Rivalries that made the NFL 'Super'. I think this suffers from recentism, i.e. that the rivalry isn't as strong as it once was. A brief query on Newspapers.com also shows a number of reliable sources from the 1970s and 80s calling this a rivalry. Plenty of sources to establish WP:GNG. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 21:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * if I'm adding this correctly, the votes are Keep 6 Delete 5. I know these usually stay open 7 days but who decides the "final" decision? It seems very split.Jackmar1Jay 16:40, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * An AFD is NOT a vote, the content and substance of the votes is much more important than the number of votes each way. The decision is made by a closing administrator who is not involved in this decision.  More information can be found at WP:AFD.  Frank Anchor Talk 22:27, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Week Keep per the sources provided by BeanieFan11 and their shared history in the 1970's. Barely scrapes by WP:GNG. Ejgreen77 (talk) 14:28, 21 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.