Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Criminal rock throwing


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus here is that the topic is notable, even if the article needs to be cleaned up. Discussion on any name change can continue on the talk page. (non-admin closure) Smartyllama (talk) 13:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Criminal rock throwing

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Synthetic collection of non-encyclopedic incidents. Almost every single source in this article (maybe about 70 out of about 77) is from an everyday news incident, most with no broad or long-term analysis other than that synthesized by user E.M. Gregory. When the article says that rock throwing "could be" a felony or that someone "could serve 14 years" for it, it means that Gregory has found a local news article where someone was charged with a felony or sentenced to 14 years for it, not that it's even necessarily a specially enumerated crime in the jurisdiction mentioned.

E.M. Gregory is a longtime disruptive user in the I/P topic (see Palestinian stone throwing, the article that started it all) who really wants to make "fetch" happen, and isn't worried about pesky things like WP:OR or WP:POINT for it. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 04:18, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. –  TheGridExe  ( talk )  04:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. Deletion is not cleanup. I suggest the personal attacks in the nom be struck. While some aspects of the article may be improved - criminal (or violent? whatever form of rock throwing which is not for play) rock throwing, as a world wide topic is clearly notable. The subject is clearly notable in even a cursory before - e.g. google books "rock throwing" criminal" has many relevant hits. I would question whether this article should also include rock throwing in a combat context - e.g. this Routlege book has a chapter on rock throwing in combat in Roman times - but whether this is all violent rock throwing or just violent criminal rock throwing - it is clearly notable.Icewhiz (talk) 11:22, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep although the title must change per WP:COMMONNAME, deleting the word "criminal." The current title smells of bias as regards the Middle East conflict. Throwing rocks at someone or something is always done with the intent to do harm. There is no such thing as friendly rock throwing or innocent rock throwing. And the verbiage about laws in various countries against rock throwing reads like an exercise in triviality. Are there any countries in the world that do not punish rock throwers? Plus, a section about rock throwing as a means of defense rather than assault is lacking, though far from surprisingly.
 * David, got any comments, baby? -The Gnome (talk) 15:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Rocks thrown in combat - e.g. this Routlege book - would not be criminal (just as killing an enemy soldier, in combat, is not murder) - I could see how rock throwing (crime) could be separate from combat - but I agree it might be just for the best to cover rock throwing (or violent rock throwing? You do need to separate from Stone skipping and other forms of rock throwing not intended to do harm) in general and not just from a legal perspective.Icewhiz (talk) 15:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Steinstossen, Stone put, someone should create Tibetan stone throwing.. There is indeed "such thing as friendly rock throwing or innocent rock throwing," an old-timey sport from which the title of this article needed to be differentiated. In addition to the criminal behavior of idle youth throwing rocks people driving on highways, this is an article about criminal rock throwing with political intent: in riots, at tense international borders, and by political movements (Stone pelting in Kashmir.)  Dozens of articles about such events have been linked to this one.  I can see moving it to rock throwing (crime), if other editors regard that as better form.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Trying to introduce athletics now into the discussion? This is getting hilarious, honestly. Funny but we never tried to introduce similar nonsense about guns, for example. Perhaps we have to make sure Wikipedia users understand the difference between firing a gun at a police officer and firing a gun as part of an Olympic event. Huge gap in Wikipedia this. -The Gnome (talk) 07:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Except for specifically forbidden weapons, such as poisonous gas, all else used in combat, including stone throwing is not criminal. But I won't be dragged into a discussion about legitimate use of force in war; I'd consider such mush to be a waste of time in the times we live in. As to skipping and throwing, they are entirely different practices; all their articles need is a "for/see" top hat. -The Gnome (talk) 16:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "Criminal rock throwing" is limited to peacetime by definition. If a soldier in a regular army were to be ordered to throw rocks (editor trying to imagine the point of ordering a platoon to throw rocks at a Super Hornet,) it would not be a criminal act.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:23, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * More disingenuous arguments. In reality, throughout the history of human warfare, stones have been used in combat, and routinely too. Bring on yer ballistas, mangonels, and catapults! It's brush up time, soldier! Yes, rocks against a Hornet aircraft, I'd say no (except as a symbolic or maybe pathetic act of desperation; I have the images), but when doing siege against any of myriads of cities pre-gunpowder you sure need to throw rocks, stones, plinths, and ehven.
 * Now a I am curious. Those dudes who threw rocks at a Hornet, they were members of the official military of a recognized state?E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, they were all elite commandos of the Eskimo state. I mean, they must've been since, as we all know, the so-called Palestinians, do not really exist. -The Gnome (talk) 18:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Inserting the word "criminal" in the title, as you did soon after putting the article up, is simply part of the agenda of some editors to introduce in Wikipedia a slanted view of Palestinian resistance. Or maybe their mission (old timers cannot forget this, this, etc). It's a redundant word. It only serves to take the focus away from the causes of Palestinian rock throwing and towards strictly the criminal aspect of rock throwing. We know from official history that, for example, even hunger strikes by arrested resisters have been officially labeled "terrorist acts" by Israel in the past. Perhaps, we should introduce the word "criminal" to that article too.
 * Or, better yet, perhaps some people need to own up and examine History a bit more critically and somberly. And learn, for instance, a few things about the honorable history of Jewish rock throwing.
 * In the middle of the neighborhood
 * The barricade stands
 * Nobody stays in the room
 * The police pass by running
 * Children throw stones onto the street.
 * That's Jewish children in Lodz in the 1920s. (See here.) Now, where's that boy David when I call 'im? Gonna whip 'is ass, when I see 'im. -The Gnome (talk) 07:05, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Please WP:AGF. As the edit record will show, I created the page a "rock throwing" and a few seconds later move it to "criminal rock throwing."  This is the easiest way to create a redirect when creating an article on a topic with more than on COMMON name.  You create under one name, and redirect to the name you prefer, in this case, for reasons of specificity.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Huh? Why don't you just create the page under the most appropriate name and then create redirects as needed? Natureium (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep - The article isn't well-written but deletion is not cleanup. I hate invoking that because it promotes poor effort and sourcing, but the topic is certainly discussed thoroughly in much better sources than what were chosen; the time really should have been taken to create a comprehensive article.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - WP:Deletion is not cleanup is an essay, just as WP:TNT is. Natureium (talk) 23:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. WP:DINC.  Furthermore, nomination is defective, as it consists largely of a personal attack on EM Greg.  Nominator ought to be sanctioned by default. XavierItzm (talk) 05:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's doubtful the contested article will be taken down. It's also doubtful, though not so much (Rod knows), that the nominator will be sanctioned. But the article will most certainly be improved, in that it'll be expanded in both scope and depth. No doubt about it. -The Gnome (talk) 07:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment: Deletion is not cleanup but the article doesn't make a case for this being a topic at all, outside of the I/P conflict where there's already a specific sub-article (which I voted to keep when it was at AFD). EMG seems to be admitting right in this discussion (16:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)) that this article synthesizes a connection between pranks and political activity. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 14:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * No "pranks" are covered in the article, which is about the crime of rock throwing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep I will not comment on other irrelevant issues related to the article raised in the AfD. There are many different aspects to rock throwing. There are religious events like Stoning of the Devil, there are sports like Steinstossen, Stone put. But the sports are one-by-one person thing. Where as using rock throwing in combat, killing somebody by stones as punishment, stoning the devil are a "mob thing". The subject of the article deserves as article. Not sure about the current title though. — usernamekiran (talk)   12:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. The article does need cleanup, as it contains sections such as "Selected deaths and injuries". w umbolo   ^^^  19:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.