Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crownpoint North Retail Park


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Maybe someone will actually undertake the task of improving this, otherwise I suspect it will be back here in the future. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:55, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Crownpoint North Retail Park

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Very small retail park / shopping mall with no notable or anchor stores. No references given to assert notability. Simple Boba.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 22:13, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Weak keep needs some tlc, 'tis all. Plenty of references to it, just search http://menmedia.co.uk for Crown Point North or Reeb Estates. Plenty of anchor stores, just look at http://www.crownpointshoppingpark.co.uk/ to get H&M, Bhs, Tesco Homeplus, Dorothy Perkins, JD Sports, M&S Outlet. Part of the site was a hat factory that blew up in 1901 killing several people. Mr Stephen (talk) 22:37, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep without prejudice. Paralleling Mr Stephen's comments, it's probably worth giving the article more than a week to be developed, sources to be located, etc. If a month or two goes by and it's still as sparse an article as it currently is, then a renomination would be in order. —C.Fred (talk) 23:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Delete Given it's history of numerous CSD and lack of notability/references, I see no reason to keep this page. BTech United (talk) 23:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The place is little more than what the Americans call a strip mall - a small regional mall with a handful of stores. It is even laid out like an American strip mall. There are shopping centres like this in every town in the UK - some towns have many of these. It's the large shopping centres like the Trafford Centre, Central Milton Keynes, Brent Cross, The Metro Centre, Meadowhall etc. that deserve articles. All the references in the world don't alter the fact that this is a small and unimportant mall. --Simple Boba.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 23:55, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Exactly, hence why It has been CSD'd earlier, but turned into a semi-deletion war. BTech United (talk) 00:42, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete or Userfy if it will avoid a deletewar. I tried an even more forgiving search of the menmedia site and could only locate 2 mentions, both somewhat trivial. Is there something I am missing? Unfortunatly all my usual mall cite sources dont pull up anything outside N.A. :/ Exit2DOS • Ctrl • Alt • Del 02:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment "All the references in the world don't alter the fact that this is a small and unimportant mall." ummm... Yes they do actually. Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things like fame, importance, or popularity. Exit2DOS • Ctrl • Alt • Del 02:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment See below my quotes from WP:ORG, noting that lots of media coverage is of a type which fails to indicate notability. All the trivial, routine, local, passing-reference, directory listing, or press-release references in the world do not establish notability. Multiple instances of in-depth coverage at a national or regional level in reliable and independent sources certainly would establish notability, if it existed. There is a difference. Edison (talk) 19:33, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Given the current status of the user, I suspect Userfying won't happen. Just putting that out there. BTech United (talk) 03:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Weak keep As per C.Fred and Mr Stephen.  NtheP (talk) 07:59, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cerejota (talk) 07:06, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


 * DeleteFails WP:ORG. Mr Stephen identified a newspaper or other news site, and just said "look for evidence of notability." That in itself does not support  notability. Where are specific examples of independent and reliable sources with significant coverage of the mall as an entity? Press releases about a sale at Tesco, or routine and humdrum announcements of  a fender-bender in the parking lot or a shoplifter arrested do not support notability.WP:ORG says "Trivial or incidental coverage is not sufficient to establish notability" and "...attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, national or international source is necessary." Spare us accounts of how a hat factory at the same location blew up in 1901, since notability of a mall is not inherited from an ancient news event affecting an unrelated business.  Nor is notability for a mall inherited from national companies having stores there. A number of editors spent some time working on a proposed guideline, WP:MALL, for notability of malls, which in the end was not adopted. One thing we did find was a classification system created by an international association of shopping center operators. A "regional mall" has at least 400,000 square feet of leasable space. A "super-regional" one has over 800,000.  says Crown Point has only 290,000 square feet of leasable space for 22 retail units. This makes it a mall of only local interest, and I expect there are thousands of this size nationally. Malls this small have typically been deleted in past AFDs. Edison (talk) 19:17, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Square footage is a very blunt measure of notability or encyclopedic-ness. As luck would have it, there are plans to open Crown Point East, another 165,000 sq ft of new retail and commercial space (MEN 16 June 2011).  TBH, I'm not sure exactly where it is or if if it would count as part of the same development; it is apparently 'linked', which doesn't tell me much.  The MEN is not exactly the Little Snoring Echo, but it is regional, and I guess the Estates Gazette, The Grocer, Retail Week, Property Week and the Dow Jones Newswire (all of which have mentioned, variously, the costs, size, architects, its presence as an an indicator of the local economy, evidence of various retailers' expansion plans, change of ownership, blah blah) are "media of limited interest".  I can live with or without the article in its current state.  Mr Stephen (talk) 21:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you identify some good refs from the sources you have noted? You just mentioned the one specific story. That would be helpful, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I would not discount trade press in some specialized area just because it is specialized. That is a puzzling aspect of WP:ORG. I would discount the local free shopper's guide,but a national publication about real estate or commerce might be relevant. Sq ft is an industry standard for "Region" and "Super regional" to screen out 30,000 articles about the neighborhood strip mall, sort of a quick screen such as keeping licensed radio stations which originate some of their own programming (and deleting repeater transmitters or hobby online radio stations), or keeping high schools (merging elementary schools), or keeping pro sports people who played a game, or someone who was on the Elbonian Olympic team, people who served in a national legislature, etc and screening out those whose stats or qualifications are lesser. I would not mind 100 articles on super-regional malls, which in fact are likely to have substantial coverage in regional publications, but don't see the point of articles on tens of thousands of little strip malls, since Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or that existed which was only of local interest. Edison (talk) 22:12, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I really don't want to spend long on this, but the sort of sources that someone ( probably not me) could mine to give a startup article include:
 * Playing it cool with non-food: 756 words: 8 October 2005: The Grocer: Among the first things you see as you enter Tesco’s first dedicated non-food Homeplus store in Denton, east Manchester, are crates and bottles of wine on special offer…
 * Greater Manchester review - EYECATCHERS: 405 words: 19 July 2004: North West Business Insider: … Crown Point North, Denton… This 212,000 sq ft retail development, built by Reeb Estates at junction 1 of the M67 just half a mile from junction 24 of the M60 in Denton, has proven to be an outstanding success.
 * Suburban transformation.: 725 words: 27 March 2004: Estates Gazette: Catchment focus. Three schemes, at Harpurhey, Cheetham Hill and Denton are strengthening Manchester's overall retail offer . Pillar Property has been busy with its two retail parks - Manchester Fort at Cheetham Hill and Crown Point North in Denton. Both are on the east side of Greater Manchester, but that is where the similarities end… [it's doing badly]
 * Property UK - Greater Manchester - Stores in their eyes.: 2553 words: 26 September 2003: Property Week: Manchester's retail sector is gearing up for a raft of new schemes and refurbs. Simon Creasey looks at developments at the Trafford Centre, and the city centre and out-of-town markets.
 * Retail Property - Pillar to purchase Manchester park.: 94 words: 1 November 2002: Retail Week: Pillar Property has agreed to buy the Crown Point North shopping park in East Manchester. The park is being developed by Reeb Estates and Mowlem subsidiary Maple Oak.
 * It would need effort. Mr Stephen (talk) 23:17, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.