Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cuppy's Coffee


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. But needs attention for BLP issues, IMHO.  Sandstein  18:07, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Cuppy's Coffee

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Non-notable coffee franchising company - fails WP:CORP ukexpat (talk) 23:59, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. North America1000 00:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America1000 00:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. North America1000 00:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete as Non-notable coffee franchising company - fails WP:CORP & WP:GNG. – Davey 2010 Talk 00:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 07:21, 9 December 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting so Onel's sources can be evaluated. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete for now as none of this currently suggests solidly satisfying the applicable notability guidelines. Notifying past users and  and also  who is part of WikiProject Food and drink.  SwisterTwister   talk  06:15, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - A franchise with over 30 locations is nothing to sneeze at, but nothing to light up the world over, either. The legal difficulties of its owner also make it more interesting. And at first there just doesn't seem to be that much coverage. There's this, this little article, and this (another small article). However, Blue Mau Mau (love the name), is one of the two main trades for franchisees. A search there turned up tons of stuff. But you have to sift through, since not only does it give news stories, it also posts op-ed pieces.  But it does included items like this, this, this, this, this, and quite a few others. Article as it stands is very poorly sourced and could use some more work. If it's not deleted, I'll be more than happy to expand it a bit. Btw, thanks  for the shout out. Always feel free to let me know about F&D articles. Finally, what I really found interesting, for those who think that Wikipedia doesn't matter, take a look at this entry at Blue Mau Mau.  Onel 5969  TT me 13:05, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 01:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * delete no indications of notability of the business ahatsoever, Staszek Lem (talk) 03:11, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per Onel's sources. --Rubbish computer (Merry Christmas!: ...And a Happy New Year!) 13:31, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 11:23, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete Onel's references aren't significant enough to establish notability, and they are also not even in the article yet. I also did my own searching and came up with much the same. As per Davey2010's comment above, Not Notable, if anything this failed business will become less and less notable over-time. Aeonx (talk) 17:24, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - fyi, the references don't have to appear in the article, simply exist, as per deletion policy.  Onel 5969  TT me 23:16, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - I would appreciate if this were relisted a third time if no further comments are made, for a better and clearer consensus. Cheers, SwisterTwister   talk  23:21, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in reliable sources.<ol> <li> The article notes: "In a May interview with BlueMau Mau.com, an Internet news site that has followed the Cuppy's franchise saga since its early days, Cuppy's CEO Dale Nabors said he shut down most of his means of communication because of the rising number of threats he and his family were receiving. Nabors took over the chain from Robert Morgan in 2008. ... The Russells, who have joined 27 other franchisees in a class-action lawsuit against the Cuppy's franchise, hope to one day rename and rebrand their shop when they can afford it. But as it turns out, splitting from a chain has made their Cuppy's, located off College Road beside Staples and PETCO in University Centre, more appealing, customers said."</li> <li> The article notes: "Still, the flagship is Cuppy's, which has 73 units and deals in place for another 135. The chain was created when Doug Hibbing and Robert Morgan paid $3 million for the assets of Java Jo'z, Hibbing's former employer, and renamed the chain Cuppy's. The previous owner went to jail for tax evasion. The new owners sold more than 100 franchises by promoting Cuppy's as a cheaper alternative to Starbucks. Blogs on the Internet began hammering the chain because many of the people who licensed the brand under the Java Jo'z name couldn't get refunds of their licensing fees when they couldn't open sites – and the switch to Cuppy's appeared suspicious. 'It created a PR nightmare,' Nabors said. 'It was a mess.'"</li> <li> The article's introduction: "Last winter, Doug Hibbing, president of Cuppy’s Coffee and More in Fort Walton Beach, Florida, learned about blogs the hard way. Hibbing had been working for Roy Snowden, the owner of a coffee licensing concept called Java Jo’z until May 2006, when Snowden was sent off to federal prison for tax evasion. Hibbing and an associate, Robert Morgan, pledged $3 million for the assets of Java Jo’z and for a second company, Medina Enterprises, that equipped the company’s drive-thru coffee stands. By July 2006, they had started a new company, Cuppy’s Coffee, and turned it into a franchise. According to a UFOC they filed this July, Cuppy’s then spent $189,557 on Internet advertising, promoting their offering as a less expensive option to Starbucks. Leads poured in like latte and by the end of December they’d sold 100 franchises." The article further notes: "Cuppy’s is back on track after its Blogosphere blow-up. Hibbing said, “In hindsight, we could see how our purchase of the Java Jo’z assets caused so much confusion. We finally hired a PR firm, but I wish we’d done so earlier.” Cuppy’s new PR consultant, Rhonda Sanderson, sent a long letter to all the blogs, with details about the Java Jo’z asset purchase, including a timeline. Hibbing started contacting the unhappy licensees in person, offering to sell them products whether they chose to convert to Cuppy’s or remain as Java Jo’z. So far, 33 have converted, he said. He also contacted the American Association of Franchisees and Dealers in San Diego for help in re-writing Cuppy’s UFOC and Franchise Agreement. The new documents won the AAFD’s Accredited Contract approval status."</li> <li> The article notes: "Cuppy's Coffee, the controversial chain that grew on the promise of being a lower-cost Starbucks, appears to have gone out of business amid strong indications of financial problems. Franchisees and prospects say they haven't heard from the company or its owner, Dale Nabors, since a short conference call in October. Phone numbers for Nabors' offices in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, are disconnected. The company's Web site no longer lists contact information. Neither Cuppy's, nor its sister company, Elite Manufacturing, their parent, Medina Enterprises, or owner FranSynergy have filed for bankruptcy as of press time, nor have they signaled a shutdown. But franchisees, former employees and attorneys believe they are no longer operating. It is uncertain where this leaves the franchise, which at last count had 75 units. The company has no staff. Franchisees say they're getting merchandise directly from suppliers. Several prospective franchisees said they never received equipment they paid for and needed to open their businesses."</li> <li> The article notes: "A clearly frustrated American Association of Franchisees and Dealers has suspended its accreditation of Cuppy's Coffee's franchise agreement, pending a vote on the accreditation's full withdrawal this month. AAFD Chairman Bob Purvin made the move amid allegations that the chain hasn't started construction on some stores, after his effort to get Cuppy's to cooperate with his investigation failed. ... Critics lambasted the move, pointing to Cuppy's history of poor relations with franchisees. Reports surfaced of the company's failure to make refunds of some promised construction deposits and they didn't stop when Nabors bought the company in April. The AAFD began investigating the company in February, and then this summer heard allegations that some franchisees have been waiting several months for Cuppy's and Elite Manufacturing to begin work on their stores."</li> <li> The article notes: "The review will look at “the totality of the opportunity,” including both the contract and the company’s actual practice, [American Association of Franchisees and Dealers (AAFD) chairman Bob] Purvin said. This is considered important—one of the highest-rated contracts was Cuppy’s Coffee, a franchisor that has apparently disappeared after a series of significant issues between it and its franchisees. Purvin, in fact, called Cuppy’s the “Bernard Madoff of franchising” and said the company was running something akin to a “franchise Ponzi scheme.” He added that, “no matter how much you like a company or a brand, you still have to be careful.” ..."</li> <li> The article notes: "But for Doug Hibbing, president of Fort Walton Beach, Fla.-based Cuppy's Coffee & More, a small specialty coffee franchise, there's an upside to the dairy squeeze. Although some diehard java fans don't balk at spending more than $3 for a latte, Starbucks customers may go elsewhere if prices get too high, Hibbing believes. And Cuppy's 38 stores are more than happy to sell them their caffè lattes instead, which cost $2.50 to $2.75 for a 12 oz. cup. ... Even as dairy costs rise, 'the margins in specialty coffee are still very comfortable,' Hibbing admits. 'It does cut into the profit margin some, but it's not a deal breaker by any stretch of the imagination.' And therefore, Cuppy's can keep prices well below the cost of Starbucks, at least for the time being. In addition, 'because our stores are locally owned and operated we don't have the layers and layers of overhead some of our competitors have.' And that's what Hibbing hopes will stimulate the company's expansion. Cuppy's expects to open 100 franchised locations by the end of the year."</li> <li>The sources listed by .</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Cuppy's Coffee to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 02:06, 2 January 2016 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * That's hardly enough coverage to completely save the article though and from the two, the Franchise Times is likely the best, but not exactly as solid as it could be, because of the listed information. It simply seems there's simply not enough coverage overall. SwisterTwister   talk  02:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I normally agree with Cunard but on this occasion I have to disagree with them - Half if not all of the sources are well .... shit .... As ST notes they're not as good as they could be - I don't expect sources to be amazing but these all just seem crap..., And plus on another note the only notable thing about the shop is it failed .... I'd imagine worldwide there's millions of failing shops but they don't need an article and IMHO this doesn't need an article either.... – Davey 2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 02:50, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've added links to four more Franchise Times articles and a CNN article. Per Notability, I don't think the shop's failing should bar it from having an article. Cunard (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep the company is notable because it doesn't seem to be dying a natural death, even after the owner was arrested for check fraud and the assets (without the liabilities) were purchased from Java Jo's where that former owner served time for tax evasion charges. The Cuppy's website is still active and they appear to still be attempting to sell franchises. My first impression is that this may be a pyramid scheme and that the article should (more prominently) detail more of the company's sordid past. This is information which, if it proves to be RS, should be easily attainable to anyone considering doing business with the firm. The knife cuts both ways, Wikipedia articles can have the effect of keeping corporations honest, deleting this article may be a favor to a possibly less than reputable firm. 009o9 (talk) 06:33, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Additional Blue MauMau (Google page rank 4) appears to be a specialty news/blog (on Google News) that is covering the Cuppy's story.Site search for Cuppy's The nine year editor owner, Don Sniegowski, has been reprinted in NuWire Investor (Google page rank 5) with the Cuppy's saga mentioned. The website, Unhappy Franchisee is clearly not RS, but the site may have links to primary (court) sources. Cuppy’s Coffee Overview Per User:onel5969 this subject/article has notability legs beyond WP:CORP that need to be expanded. 009o9 (talk) 07:46, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: It appears as though the original franchising died out when the owner was arrested. However, since then, trademarks were abandoned and then someone else has registered them and is selling franchises again.  The new person appears to have no relationship to the original company.  The new person coming in and changing the article to an advertisement is partially what brought this article here. LionMans Account (talk) 15:10, 2 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.