Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cyberian hip hop


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Moved to User talk:User:LesDuncan/Cyberian hip hop NAC – Davey 2010 Talk 20:05, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Cyberian hip hop

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Contested prod. This article is a non-notable neologism and possibly a hoax or marketing scheme. There are only 39 Google hits, most of which seem to be Wikipedia mirrors. IronGargoyle (talk) 13:37, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete Going through refs: Dictionary source doesn't discuss Cyberian hip hop, just "cyberian", the Penny Arcade blog doesn't mention it (and also it's a blog) and the magazine article doesn't use the term "Cyberian hip hop". Looks like 90% of the topic area is Nerdcore.Origamiteⓣⓒ 13:54, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, looking at the new Facebook ref, can you say WP:NEO? Origamiteⓣⓒ 20:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. North America1000 16:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. North America1000 16:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

You guys already know most of my counter arguments for why the Cyberian hip hop wiki should stay up. I can't say too much, really. "If the rapper coined it on April 9th, than how did you start the article on March 14th?" My response to that: I was predicting the future, sort of. I felt nerdcore ARTISTS would see the logic behind my idea and one of them would take the step of "coining" it. I just planted the seed in hopes that people would someday realize it's existence and support it's growth into a healthy, lively plant. The day this page was made doesn't matter now. People know and support the genre. I can't use it for marketing or anything slimy like you assumed I would. Artists from various online communities are using the genre name for it's intended purpose, which I've explained to you yesterday. Also, I don't know what your requirements are for a genre to be "real". It was just coined. Give it some time to grow. How many people need to support the genre before it's a "real genre"? Are you really the judge? How about the artists themselves? Wouldn't THEY be the judge? BBear and KTP (two long time hip hop artists from the nerdcore community) have expressed their support of Cyberian hip hop, even connecting the genre to their bandcamp music (actually allowing this genre tag to affect their music sales). And at the time of writing this, the facebook fan page KTP made for the genre has 138 people who support the genre's existence. Some artists even believe that nerdcore isn't even a music genre. I think it's more of a community. Cyberian hip hop isn't a community, but a genre. The opposite of nerdcore. Nerdcore has nothing to do with Cyberian hip hop, now that i think about it. Cyberian hip hop now has NO ties to nerdcore other than "Other topics" which is fair. LesDuncan (talk) 23:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Look--the core of Wikipedia articles, their basis as a "real" anything, is notability, shown by multiple reliable sources. Unfortunately, because you just created the word, they don't exist yet (no, Facebook doesn't count). The policy on neologisms applies here, and as for the 138 people this section bears reading. I have no opinion on the genre-ness or not of nerdcore. Origamiteⓣⓒ 23:48, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * So you're saying it's all based on time, right? Can't you make this page an exception due to how well this genre describes a type of music (not a type of community such as the nerdcore community) that already exists? A type of music that was placing itself under a certain genre due to necessity ("I gotta put my music in some genre... I guess I'll go with this. I don't see anything that better describes my music.") rather than acceptance of logical genre description ("This almost exactly describes my music.")? Three artists so far have already cleared their music as Cyberian hip hop. Can proof of Bandcamp tags back up this point? The longer we wait and the more cyberian hip hop spreads, the more not so understood artists will feel the connection this genre and label themselves under it. LesDuncan (talk) 00:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, the existing articles made on nerdcore might of been about the nerdcore scene/community instead of nerdcore as a music genre due to how Nerdcore doesn't really have much of a genre description, on it's wiki page and regarding the opinions of nerdcore community members. "Nerdcore is Nerdcore" and “I don't think nerdcore is a real genre” does not equate to how descriptive Cyberian hip hop is. Cyberian hip hop actually engulfs the music made within the nerdcore online community. Based on Cyberian hip hop's genre description. It also engulfs meme rap, chap hop and tumblr-wave. Like an UMBRELLA GENRE. Something nerdcore, meme rap, chap hop and tumblr-wave is not. LesDuncan (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Southern hip hop is an umbrella genre for example. The genre didn't need an article made about it as a genre name to exist. Because it just factually did. Southern hip hop's a region plus hip hop. Cyberia is cyberspace. Cyberspace is a faux region because it's a non-physical terrain that human beings exist and interact within. Then you add the hip hop and it's Cyberian hip hop. It just is. I think Wikipedia should be proud to host such an interesting discovery. Well, it's actually something that's been in existence since the early 2000's. But no one put the words together like I did. All it is, is two words that have definitions for them, put together. To make a new word, mixing those definitions together. LesDuncan (talk) 00:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * "Southern hip hop, as a name, was not created by one person wanting to "brand" a form of existing hip hop. It just happened, because that is where it was made. Nerdcore does not just exist on the Internet in the realm of Cyberspace. It exists all over the world, in different regional pockets. And your argument for Benjamin Bear and Kabuto the Python "supporting" your new name, you obviously can't tell when you are being made the butt of a joke. They are messing with you. You are being made a laughing stock within other groups in the community; trolled, if you will. This should NOT, as you plead, be "made an exception", since you are merely wanting, under your own admittance under the "Talk" page, which I have screen-shots of in case you decide to delete stuff from it, for your "entertainment company" to use. This is not an acceptable use of Wikipedia. That is really no different than allowing Scientologists, politicians, advertisers, etc. to edit pages for their own ends. This page is not being created for informational uses, but for marketing uses. Gristlehead (talk) 03:18, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not saying that. If society never describes Cyberian hip hop in reliable sources, an article would never get written. And why should we make an exception for you? I personally declined an article draft earlier today due to the same reason that your article is under discussion here. Why shouldn't Chaperitis get the same exception you get? To me, nerdcore sounds like music about nerds and their activities, but nerdiness is widespread now, and nerdcore could easily encompass Cyberian hip hop. (Also, what on earth is tumblr-wave?) Southern hip hop was described in reliable sources and only then was the article written, so give Cyberian hip hop time. Not everything that exists needs an article, and if it's a discovery that you're first putting here that's pretty much original research too. Origamiteⓣⓒ 03:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * If there's no use attempting to convince the people in power, than I'll take the L. But to Gristlehead, two grown men (with real life adult responsibilities) making fun of one of their fans for thinking out of the box (that's all) sounds like something they wouldn't do. They aren't even disrespecting me. The fanpage was made respectably, in a way that adds legitimacy to Cyberian hip hop. I know these two guys can troll hard. But right now, they are assisting me. They're literally giving up their time and using their image and music to support Cyberian hip hop. And as you said, Origamite, the genre exists with or without Wikipedia. I get it. I guess I'll take the growing support/recognition for the genre as a W and be happy with that. I'm telling you, Origamite, nerdcore hasn't encompassed anything in 15 years. It's done. Talented music artists who put long hours into their craft don't want their music to be connected to the definition of nerd. Music made by "foolish, contemptible people who lack social skills OR stupid, irritating, ineffectual, or unattractive people" (that's the actual definition of nerd) isn't encompassing anything. I just feel artists need a proper non-self degrading description for their music. So cyberian hip hop was coined. LesDuncan (talk) 03:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * And with everything you just said in this last edit, it shows that you know nothing of any of these people. We all embrace being nerds. We love it. These people want their music to be listened to by other nerds who will understand it and where it is coming from. And, yes, you are being trolled hard. You just can't see it because you are blinded by the "righteousness" of your cause. This is why, as I've said before and, apparently need to say again, Nerdcore is what it is. It always will be. Make your own genre called Cyberian hip hop with your own style. There is really no need to appropriate someone else's style like that. If the artists coming out for the last almost 20 years had a problem being branded Nerdcore, they wouldn't have denoted themselves as Nerdcore. There are lots of "nerdy" Indy hip hop artists that do not class themselves as Nerdcore. Becoming a "Nerdcore artist" is a choice, just like any other. Gristlehead (talk) 03:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. No evidence of notability. 32.216.147.44 (talk) 03:53, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * When I get some proof of being trolled, I'll believe you, but Ultraklystron just signed off on Cyberian hip hop, too. So that's three veteran artists supporting the genre. They just saw the logic within the genre description and put their music under that genre. Cyberian hip hop isn't taking from Nerdcore's style. It doesn't have a style itself, as you know from description of it, so stop with that. It describes authentic creative backgrounds of music and artists within it, just like Southern hip hop or any other blanket term genre (east coast, west coast, etc). The genre description just engulfs the nerdcore online community like an umbrella. It doesn't invade your scene or style. It engulfs it. Covers it. It would engulf the MGTOW online community, too for example, if rappers within the MGTOW community started making hip hop tracks to promote the movement over there. This isn't a genre that can be disrespected, that's why if trolling exists, I can't see it because the genre isn't a community. It's a blanket term genre. The artists can only disrespect themselves (literally). People who disrespect a whole blanket term genre touch every artist within it. My music hasn't really been made, quite yet. I also just realized Cyberian hip hop is technically as old as nerdcore, if not older due to how places like "Song Fight!" were an online community, that frontalot was part of before his nerdcore hiphop track came out. Actually yes. That's it, then. You actually can not say Cyberian hip hop is taking from nerdcore in any way now. It predates it. Wow. Now I gotta see where sites like "Song Fight!" started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LesDuncan (talk • contribs) 18:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete – After reading the article, its sources, some of the initial comments here and attempting to find other online sources, it's clear that this isn't a real term or genre of music. Wikipedia is not a platform for advancing one's own opinions or inventing words. Fezmar9 (talk) 19:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - This is not a genre, and there are no reliable sources. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me  01:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Fezmar9, you seem unbiased, so let's go back and forth for bit. Here I go: Just because a word hasn't been coined for something until now, doesn't mean (under the description of the Cyberian hip hop genre) that it did not already exist. It's existence technically predates Nerdcore and has a different description than nerdcore. Which means nerdcore (if it is a genre) does not interfere with Cyberian hip hop and it's existence. To add onto that, artists from the nerdcore community are now telling me that "I've been waiting for a better name than "nerdcore" for years now". That means he was labeling his music "nerdcore" out of lack of better options. Now that Cyberian hip hop was coined, an already existing type of music (not nerdcore, but this type: hip hop music where it's authentic creative backgrounds originate from an online or virtual community, etc, etc.) has the proper genre label. That would mean the "Song Fight!" and nerdcore wiki page are real sources to cyberian hip hop's existence as a real genre. Nerdcore's news sources would back up cyberian hip hop's existence, too. Because the nerdcore community has had a strong active online community of music/artists, that fits under this genres description. Plus, are you really willing to deny the 200+ people (in just 2 days of the official coining) who agree that Cyberian hip hip is a real term or genre of music? The grime music wiki page is a good example of this situation. Grime wasn't called grime first. The music style was known by a number of names, "including 8-bar (meaning 8 bar verse patterns), nu shape (which encouraged more complex 16 bar and 32 bar verse patterns), sublow (a reference to the very low bassline frequencies, often around 40 Hz[4]), as well as eskibeat, a term applied specifically to a style initially developed by Wiley..." before people decided on coining "Grime" as the proper genre name that blanketed across all these other genres, now called Grime's subgenres. The music (under those other genre names) that predate the coining of grime is now called "Grime". That's because the artists agreed that the music made before grime, fit grime's genre description. Cyberian hip hop blankets over nerdcore, geeksta rap, chap-hop, tumblr-wave, etc. and than blankets over hip hop artists who's authentic creative backgrounds originate from an online or virtual community. Like Sky or Dunkey rapping about their LoL community drama and experiences. It's not like it can blanket over any type of hip hop music it wants. It has to meet the description requirements. It just cannot see the flaws in my position. Especially when others outside of this page (including actual music artists) ONLY agree with me. That's why I seem so righteous, I guess. Because my position and this genre is supported by the artists it was coined for. But on the real, guys, so far your strongest argument is "news articles with "cyberian hip hop" need to be made before wiki will let you remake the wiki page". It's just a matter of time. You could just let me use this genre's subgenres (don't get offended guys) as evidence, because they are evidence. I'm telling you, this genre ALREADY EXISTED before it's subgenres did. I just wasn't there to coin the word until now (just teasing lol). You're holding back the inevitable. This page should stay up but if you're really going to make me have to remake the page, I guess i'll have to deal with the silliness of that. I'll copy and paste the wiki page code, so I don't have to type it all over again. LesDuncan (talk) 02:17, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * , I think he wants to talk to you. LesDuncan, you have to ping people if you want to be positive they see it.
 * Wikipedia rule #1 is that notability is established by in-depth coverage in reliable sources. If I define Technohiphop as any hip hop based off of any technology (so computers, radios, fire-starting, banging two rocks together), that doesn't mean I can use sources on Nerdcore, or on hip hop in general. Nerdcore's news sources do not mention CHH with in-depth coverage, so that argument doesn't work. Again, read this section on how an arbitrary number means nothing. The difference between CHH and Grime is that Grime has been covered by the BBC, The New Yorker, Rolling Stone online and a bunch of other reliable sources. Also, you wouldn't have to copy paste (you couldn't, that would be copyright violation by removing the other contributors to the page under the Wikipedia content license) but you could wikify the page by moving it to User:LesDuncan/Cyberian hip hop and out of article space. Origamiteⓣⓒ 02:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * What you're saying is fine, it's just that Wikipedia is not the place for a social movement or a personal revelation in music history. Can you agree that not everything that exists is deserving of a Wikipedia page? For example, the grilled cheese that I had for lunch. Can we both agree that there exists a line in the sand between Fezmar9's April 10, 2015 Grilled Cheese Sandwich and Pink Floyd? Wikipedia draws that line with the General Notability Guideline, which more or less describes notability as something with media coverage. My sandwich, sadly, did not garner nearly the media attention in deserved, while it would be hard to find one music publication that didn't at least mention Pink Floyd once. Similarly, I have personal opinions about the secret history of noir punk, but I keep those opinions to my blog and conversations with my friends because I know this isn't the place for them, while I make sure that all of my edits to Wikipedia can be attributed to a reliable source. So, go spread the gospel that is "cyberian hip hop," make some buzz in the mainstream media, and come back with some sources. Cheers. Fezmar9 (talk) 03:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I finally get it. Even if Cyberian hip hop is a now supported blanket genre that covers existing known genres, CHH as a genre name/term itself has to reach a certain popularity level before getting into Wiki because wiki has to wait until there is no denying the genre exists. It has to reach a popularity level where it would be impossible for a random dude, like some of the dudes here, to challenge its existance. I got to start somewhere lower in prestige level. Hmm. I guess I can always go over to Last FM lol. Thanks, Fezmar9. LesDuncan (talk) 03:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Pretty much. Would you like me to turn it into a subpage of your user page, so that you can edit it if and when it finds reliable sources? Origamiteⓣⓒ 03:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * If that's what you think is best, Origamite. Thanks. You're going to be doing stuff that I have no knowledge about, so don't pull any slick stuff lol. Also, if you are irritated at all by my inability to understand you, while almost instantly being able to understand Fezmar9, I apologize. You guys just approach disagreements with different styles. LesDuncan (talk) 04:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no worries. I know I can be hard to communicate with sometimes. I'll move the article to userspace now. Origamiteⓣⓒ 04:44, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.