Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cynthia Graham Hurd


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There doesn't seem to be any agreement on whether the subject meets the appropriate notability guidelines, and I can't see one forming if I relisted the debate. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  14:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Cynthia Graham Hurd

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I'm having some trouble with this article. I am not at all sure that Hurd is, herself, notable. However, I consider the Cynthia Graham Hurd Memorial Scholarship is likely to be notable. Hurd's memory has also spawned the renaming of a library branch; The Cynthia Graham Hurd Foundation for Reading and Civic Engagement has been established in her name as have other items. She also received an award from the Congressional Black Caucus.

These things are self evident and referenced, to a greater or lesser extent, and I do not quarrel with them at all.

My feeling is that the article falls into WP:NOTMEMORIAL as written about Hurd. She was killed in a notable shooting incident, as were eight others. But that does not in and of itself render Hurd to be notable.

Acknowledging that citing other articles is deprecated at AfD, nonetheless the community usually considers that articles about the victims of murders to be inappropriate, but articles about the murders themselves are appropriate as are articles about, for example, foundations in the name of the deceased.

The article should be split, renamed, or otherwise handled, and with sensitivity.

[tl;dr version: Hurd fails WP:BIO/WP:GNG but items created in Hurd's name may well be appropriate]  Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 19:09, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions.  Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 19:09, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Carolina-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:20, 17 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: It sounds like the event of her death/murder seems to be notable, whereas she might not be herself. So renaming the article to Death of Cynthia Graham Hurd might be the solution. Silver  seren C 20:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I am in the process of revising the article and adding more sources, and based on my research so far, it appears that it is her life and legacy that is notable, and renaming the article may not be appropriate. Beccaynr (talk) 20:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep after reviewing the sources, revising the article, and adding more sources, I think there is at minimum, WP:BASIC notability, including due to sources such as the South Carolina Department of Education (and partners) 2021 feature of Hurd, which is part of The South Carolina African American History Calendar, designed to provide "educators, parents, and visitors a method of identifying African American role models for all youth and honoring notable African American achievers with ties to South Carolina." In addition, there is a 2020 local NBC article discussing her and her legacy. There is also a 2021 Associated Press analysis that includes reporting on her family and mentions her as "Cynthia Graham-Hurd, a beloved public librarian who was just shy of her 55th birthday, died huddled under a desk in the church’s fellowship hall. She had been shot at least a half-dozen times." However, most of sources seem to focus on her life and legacy, including 2015 NBC News coverage of her funeral, as well as local news coverage of her funeral, and a 2015 Washington Post interview with her brother Malcolm Graham. In addition, in 2015, the Guardian covers the renaming of the regional library and the establishment of the Foundation, and local news continued to follow its progress in 2020. These multiple independent and reliable sources all seem to provide support for notability that is overall focused on her. Beccaynr (talk) 23:14, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Charleston church shooting (as Cynthia Hurd already does) per WP:VICTIM. She is not notable independent of the shooting that took her life. Post-2015 coverage is sporadic and weak. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:15, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - I will be redirecting have redirected Cynthia Hurd to Cynthia Graham Hurd. I have not yet decided how I am !voting on the article.  Robert McClenon (talk) 05:32, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment In 2016, the South Carolina General Assembly also passed a resolution to "celebrate the life of Cynthia Graham Hurd, librarian, community servant-leader, devoted family member, respected colleague, and friend to the many citizens of Charleston whose lives she influenced in a lifetime of service," that includes detailed biographical information. WP:VICTIM states A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person, and not only does she appear to be known for more than her connection to the criminal event, the Charleston church shooting article does not appear capable of incorporating the available encyclopedic material relating to her, including due to its limited focus on the victims. Beccaynr (talk) 00:54, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete The rule is NOTMEMORIAL. The other things she is known for are not significant enough that there would be any potential for an article except for being a victim.  It always saddens me when I feel I have to !vote delete for a serious well-meaning and skillfull attempt to write articles on estimable useful and well-regarded people, who nonetheless are not notable, and get press only because of an intersection with something that very much is (usually, but not always, tragic).  But if we keep articles like this we're no longer going to look like an encyclopedia, as there is no lasting notability.  DGG ( talk ) 01:01, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Beccaynr (talk) 02:31, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment I also found another named scholarship from the University of South Carolina and 2020 sources discussing the yearly events that have happened in honor of her legacy: 1 2, 3, and a Washington Post report on her funeral. The coverage appears to be WP:SUSTAINED, and she seems unlikely to remain a low-profile individual, due to the ongoing library exhibits/programs/events, her foundation activities, and the various scholarships as well as the award in her name. Beccaynr (talk) 03:49, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete: per nom, especially WP:NOTMEMORIAL, I also could think of a redirect CommanderWaterford (talk) 20:17, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 23:23, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep She and her legacy are clearly notable and have received very substantial coverage in reliable independent sources over a period of years. For example the Washington Post ran an entire article about her. This entry meets Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. She isn't notable just for being a shooting victim but for her life inspiring young readers and being a community leader before the shooting and for inspiring a substantial legacy after it. If we have an urge to merge then by all means the shooter is only known for one thing and I have no idea why we have a lengthy entry for someone who isn't known for anything else. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:27, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The Washington Post article came out three days after the shooting, so that at least doesn't support your contention. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:36, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This Washington Post article was published ten days after she died, and includes in-depth biographical information about her childhood, education, family, and career. Per WP:GNG, Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material. Beccaynr (talk) 22:55, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * So? That happens all the time. Per WP:SUSTAINED, "Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability." I don't expect Zhu Keming to get an article, despite being praised by the BBC, CNN, Newsweek, etc. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:02, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Though the article has a number of sources from years after her death in 2015 that are entirely about her, her life, and the legacy she left behind. Silver  seren C 00:14, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sources published after 2015 include: South Carolina General Assembly (April 28, 2016), The South Carolina African American History Calendar (2021), Remembering the life and legacy of Cynthia Graham Hurd (South Carolina Daily News, 2020), The kindness of Cynthia Graham Hurd lives on five years after the Charleston Church Shooting (NBC2 Charleston, 2020), Carolina Strong Book Drive will honor Cynthia Graham Hurd (WCSC5, 2017), CCPL Honors Cynthia Hurd & the Emanuel 9 (ABCNews4, 2016), Charleston County Public Library to honor Cynthia Graham Hurd (ABC4, 2020), Charleston Co. Public Library branch honors Emanuel AME shooting victim with portrait (WCSC5, 2018, "The event was part of a series of events called "Kindness Week" to honor Hurd and her philosophy of always trying to be kind."), Between the Stacks: Celebrate Cynthia Graham Hurd (Moultrie News, 2020). The 2015 coverage was also about more than her death and funeral and included national and international coverage from USAToday and the Guardian about the Foundation and library renaming. Per WP:NOTMEMORIAL, Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements, and objectively, she appears notable, based on the sustained coverage in multiple independent and reliable sources, as well as the "naming of academic awards" (e.g. as suggested by WP:NPROF criteria 1) after her. Beccaynr (talk) 01:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - There has been significant coverage of the subject by reliable secondary sources since her death. It seems to me that the opposition to listing her is imposing a de facto distinction between different types of notability that have no actual basis in policy.  Robert McClenon (talk) 03:15, 2 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.