Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cyprus massacre (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 09:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Cyprus massacre
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

No sources from that date or proofs dating that event.
 * Keep - it does have some reliable sources listed, and the last AfD (only a month and a bit ago) seemed satisifed that it was not a hoax. Give it a little more time to develop, though I'd suggest deleting the final line of the article (as I'm looking at it now, anyway - "However, it should be noted that some sources...") as it's a little unencyclopedic! ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 09:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete or Merge to Ottoman–Venetian War (1570–1573) This article consists of a claim by Armenian sources...but no clear proof . Anyone can make a claim and have it cited in books but without evidence, its meaningless. Please note that Armenians and Turks have had conflicts for centuries. It may be true...or just historical propaganda. --Artene50 (talk) 10:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete or Merge to Ottoman–Venetian War (1570–1573) Neither the term 'Cyprus massacre' alone is 'encyclopaedic'. EOKA's mass-killings of Turks can also be called as Cyprus massacre.--hnnvansier (talk) 10:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete the entry and merge content into Ottoman–Venetian War (1570–1573). As a stand-alone, the article is pretty much useless. There were indeed massacres during the 1570–1573 war, and that article is where this info belongs, within proper context. The title itself however is highly problematic and subject to POV interpretations, since "Cyprus massacre" without any other qualifications can mean any number of things. Constantine  ✍  11:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Those given numbers are extreme, which makes %10 to %20 of the total population of Cyprus that time. It is obviously exaggerated, as usual in all that kind of topics related to Armenian - Turkish relationship.--hnnvansier (talk) 12:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the massacre of some 20,000 at the fall of Nicosia is well attested. Given that the same fate befell Famagusta, the lower figure (30,000) is not unreasonable, and an even greater total casualties figure due to the war is not unlikely. The Turkish-Armenian relationship may be complex, but I don't exactly see how the Armenian part comes into this - these massacres involved Orthodox Greeks and Catholics in even greater numbers than Armenians... Constantine  ✍  17:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What was the total population of those cities at that time? 20.000 is a huge, very huge number--hnnvansier (talk) 23:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This is hardly the place for this discussion, but 20,000 is barely a "huge, very huge" number. Thousands of cities through the ages have had that number of inhabitants, and the fact that 20,000 were killed at the fall of Nicosia is well-attested by contemporary sources. Constantine  ✍  12:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * We are talking about Cyprus, not the whole world. I want to learn the total population of the island at that time. Any sources? Who counted the number of deaths while we do not know the total population? Bare propaganda.--hnnvansier (talk) 06:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Nomination is incorrect, there are 4 independant sources in the article unless it has been vandalized again and more were mentioned during the first Afd. Edward321 (talk) 04:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sources are not reliable and not historical works.--hnnvansier (talk) 05:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The nomination's reasons are indeed incorrect. Massacres did happen during that war, but the current article only states they happened, providing no other information or context. Since a more general article about the war exists, that is where this information should be found. Plus, the name "Cyprus massacre" is too vague. Other massacres have sadly been perpetrated in Cyprus at different times, the 1570 events hardly claim to be the sole "Cyprus massacre", nor are they known as such. The term brings 147 results in Google, most of whom are either Wiki clones or irrelevant to the event labeled as such. Constantine  ✍  12:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Indeed'? Are your thoughts supposed to be 'indeed' truths? Which source tells us that indeed realities?--hnnvansier (talk) 06:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge & Delete per Artene50; this is one side in a debate. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The sources suggest that the wider academic community accepts the historical reality of the massacres, with fringe objections from Turkish sources. The article can take a NPOV by taking the mainstream academic perspective that the massacres occurred, but also mentioning the Turkish objections, as in this revision. Significant coverage in independant, reliable sources demonstrates the notability of the massacres independantly of the war, so the article should not be merged at this time and any merger discussion should not happen here. Ryan Paddy (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen from Lardayn's comments (for an extensive discussion, see both our talk pages) the sources he provided do not dispute the massacre, rather, they do not mention it, and from this he (Lardayn) infers that the events are disputed. I am therefore not sure whether there is actually a school of thought in Turkey that denies it actually happened. Not mentioning does not equal disputing it. Constantine  ✍  21:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd bet my left testical that there is a school of thought in Turkey that denies the massacre occured, but I agree the sources added should be examined to see what they say, and any original research should be removed from the article. However, this stuff is really a content issue and not relevant to an AfD discussion, it should be taken to the article talk page. Ryan Paddy (talk) 21:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest, Turks do not believe there were civilian massacres happened in their history after 11th century to the 19th, except the ones that they accept as did happen (like military actions against rebellions etc). Thats because, civilian killings are, no matter what the conditions are, heavy crime and sin in Islamic beliefs. It might be happened or not, I am not a historian. But this is the counter-view and I think, it should also be mentioned there.--hnnvansier (talk) 22:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Cyprus-related deletion discussions.  —Ryan Paddy (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  —Ryan Paddy (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Please note that User:Lardayn (hnnvansier) created this deletion discussion (without signing his reason), and also !voted in it. Lardayn, it's worth noting for future reference that this is not allowed. Ryan Paddy (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep A word of advice to whomever nominated the article: Next time put more than three seconds of thought into the reason for an afd before hitting save. Since its your responsibility to give some sound reasons for the deletion of an article, you may want to cite policy breaches or non-compliance with guidelines rather than reducing your argument to "No sources from that date or proofs dating that event". On the matter of the article itself, my keep rational is per Ryan Paddy's comment above: since the nominator has done a poor job of handling this afd, I gravitate toward a keep position unless someone would like to provide an actual reason to delete the page. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.