Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/D'Jais


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. A messy AfD overall. A lot of sources provided, not really established either way whether they are enough for notability. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 05:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

D'Jais

 * – ( View AfD View log )


 * Queried speedy delete Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:59, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete "There was beer everywhere but customers loved the place" -- delete as needing complete rewrite. EEng (talk) 13:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed text from the article that was "storytelling" and not directly related to the references. I hope that helps. I'm new at this, and still figuring out what is appropriate. Smm201`0 (talk) 18:27, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, here's what we need to know:
 * (1) Why is this bar somthing people all over the world might want to know about?
 * (2) Where is the answer to (1) written down, in a newspaper, magazine, or book?
 * EEng (talk) 19:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. I see on the talkpage thay you say there's a one-page (really?) NYT article. Can you point us to it ?But you need to know that restaurant reviews, travel articles, etc., aren't going to be enough.


 * Comment - There is a one-page (on a computer screen, not in the hardcopy Times) mention at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/18/nyregion/quick-bite-belmar-by-the-beach-a-club-and-a-club-sandwich.html?scp=1&sq=D%27Jais&st=cse, but it's just a review. --CliffC (talk) 20:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Basically, I would not have posted this page if I hadn't seen the New York Times articles. My argument is that this bar is iconic enough that when the NYT publishes something about shore clubs, or needs to report the response of shore clubs to an issue, one of the people they contact is Frank Sementa (or Kipp Connor) at D'Jais. D'Jais is a significant a part of youth culture in this region of the states. I don't think I said there was a whole page dedicated to D'Jais - I just listed the page number of the article. I just looked and there are 5 NYT articles, 1/2 to 3/4 page long. They are about issues affecting D'Jais and other clubs, but D'Jais is highlighted. Two feature both pictures and text pertaining to D'Jais: "Is Tourism necessary?" - small picture of Kipp Connor and D'Jais, 1/2 page article. "Belmar tries to soften effect of summer invasion" - 1/4 page picture of Frank Sementa in front of D'Jais, 1/2-3/4 page article.139.84.48.251 (talk) 21:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC) The 5 articles are in addition to the restaurant review.139.84.48.251 (talk) 21:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC) I am the author of the D'jais Wikipedia page, but forgot to log in. 139.84.48.251 = Smm201`0 (talk) 21:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC) I'm a little confused how you could read the D'Jais page and not see the references. Don't you have to read the page to review it? References 1.^ a b Glickson, G. (1992, September 6). If you're thinking of living in Belmar. New York Times, p. R5. 2.^ a b Cowen, R., & Shih, E. (2007, September 2). Sun, sand, surf combine for a fine end to season. The Record, Bergen County, N.J., p. A01. 3.^ a b c d DeMasters, K. (2002, August 18) By the beach, a club and a club sandwich. New York Times, p. NJ12. 4.^ a b c Dellisanti, A. (1990, May 27). A beach fee dispute and a question: Is tourism necessary? New York Times, p. NJ2. 5.^ a b Entertainment/News Editors (2004, July 9). 18th Annual New Jersey Sandcastle Contest Attracts Over 9,500 Visitors; More than 350 Entries of All Ages Competed in Belmar Event. Business Wire, New York, p. 1. 6.^ a b c Entertainment/News Editors (2003, June 20). Record Turnout Anticipated for 17th Annual New Jersey Sandcastle Contest in Belmar Business Editors/Travel Writers. Business Wire, New York, p. 1. 7.^ a b Entertainment/News Editors (2002, June 26). Sand Sculpting Expert to Offer Free Clinic on Building the Perfect Sandcastle. Business Wire, New York, p. 1. 8.^ Robbins, L. (2005, August 29). After break and break up, Clijsters makes a fresh start. New York Times, p. F4. 9.^ McAleavy, T. (1996, Jun 14). Towns teach bouncers a thing or two. The Record, Bergen County, N.J. p. 020. 10.^ a b Larsen, E. (2007, April 3). Resort towns look for balance. Knight Ridder Tribune Business News, p. 1. 11.^ Shaheenbelmar, J. (1986, June 8). Belmar tries to soften effect. New York Times, p. NJ22. 12.^ Special to the New York Times (1986, June 22) Jersey town shuts bars early - and stirs debates. New York Times,p. 34. Smm201`0 (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that everything in Wikipedia meets standard #1. Some people would want to know about it, though.


 * I think you need to read WP:N, WP:RS, WP:NOTTRAVEL. In most of these sources the word "D'Jais" appears only once, one of a list of beach bars, or "Celebrity X is hanging out at D'Jais before returning to Belgium", plus there's one short review.  5,6, and 7 mention that D'J sponsors a sandcastle contest -- sponsoring a sandcastle contest doesn't make a place notable..  I don't want to hurt your feelings, but this isn't going to cut it, sorry.  But there's a few more days, maybe you'll come up with more. EEng (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC) P.S. it doesn't matter about other articles. There's plenty of stuff in WP that shouldn't be there.  See WP:OTHERSTUFF

Smm201`0 (talk) 02:49, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Your description of the references is clearly selective since D'jais is clearly mentioned in a substantive way in the other articles that you chose not to mention. I suspect that your involvement is at the request of your friends since your initial comment was made without having read the article.
 * Uh oh, you mentioned that you're new to Wikipedia, and you're off to a very bad start. You are encouraged -- in fact required -- to assume good faith on the part of other editors; see WP:FAITH.  I commented on the articles that I was able to accesss, although I can't say I tried as hard as I could for all of them.  The rest appear from the titles to be unlikely to be about D;J in any substantial way.  That  remains to be seen, but you'll be very lucky to find any editor who will wade through the sand-castle articles trying to find one article that lends notability (and more than one will be needed, by the way).   So again, for the third time, will you please read the notability guidelines and tell us which, if any, of your sources qualify (and please provide live links to those sources if you can)?  The article's already been deleted once and it's your job now to see that it doesn't happen again, if that's what you want. EEng (talk) 03:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:39, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I cannot provide live links to the print New York Times articles or post them online because they are copyrighted. I have access through a university to full text newspaper articles, which is how I located them. Others with access can verify their existance.Smm201`0 (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * First of all, if you have live links to any of these articles you can and should supply them -- copyright has nothing to do with it. That makes things easy on everyone.
 * Beyond that... this is now the 3rd or 4th time I've asked:
 * Please say which of the articles listed above are the ones you claim satisfy the notability criteria at WP:CORP, particularly WP:CORPDEPTH?
 * For each of those articles, if you haven't supplied a link then please quote the passage that mentions D'J. I predict they are very short.
 * I'm asking this very directly because, as I've said before, it appears from those of your sources I'm able to see, and (for the others) from their titles plus they way you use them in the article, that they are trivial mentions and reviews.::EEng (talk) 00:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep here's some : Crowds smaller at Belmar nightspot after uproar over mayor's comments (NY Daily News), D'Jais bar put on notice by Belmar (The Coast Star), JERSEY TOWN SHUTS BARS EARLY - AND STIRS DEBATE (The New York Times), The D'Jais way (Metromix) and QUICK BITE/Belmar; By the Beach, a Club and a Club Sandwich (The New York Times). There are a few, although somewhat trivial, historical accounts of D'Jais among biographical mentions at Google Books. As far as the sandcastle thing, it may be considerably trivial, but it gets coverage (Asbury Park Press). - Theornamentalist (talk) 00:51, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The sources (now linked from the article) mention D'J in only the most trivial ways, except for   and  (both short reviews). It's a nice bar I'm sure, but not notable. EEng (talk) 18:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Clarification. Only 7 of the 22 references are linked. One of the New York Times links is just an abstract of the article. The abstracted and the remaining unlinked articles are mostly from the New York Times and the Asbury Park Press. These articles are copyrighted and the NYT  and APP sites require that you pay to view the whole article. That is why there are no active links for them. There are additional articles on D'Jais in the APP and local papers that were not needed for documentation of facts. D'Jais gets a great deal of coverage. Smm201`0 (talk) 19:29, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, once again, will you please' say which sources -- listed in the article or not -- establish notability under WP:CORP? I keep asking you to do this.  A pile of 22 sources -- most of which seem (by their content for those linked, and by their title for those not -- e.g. sandcastles) to be trivial and to mention or likely mention D;Jais only in passing -- plus your statemtn that "there are additional sources" is no help.  Which ones do you claim qualify the bar for notability.  If the notability-establoishing sources aren't linked, then please quote the bit that talks about D;Jais.  Please, will you do that? EEng (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Listen, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I feel I've already provided my rationale. You've already suggested that it be deleted. Have a good night. Smm201`0 (talk) 05:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've asked several other editors to give their opinions, so it won't be just you and me. One in particular is very good a digging up sources for notability.  EEng (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Gene93k (see above) has already linked this discussion to different AfD topic forums in order to encourage discussion. Smm201`0 (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smm201`0 (talk •contribs) 15:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete Not seeing any evidence of non-trivial coverage outside of one area; a restaurant getting mentioned in the NYT doesn't automatically confer notability on it. OhNo itsJamie Talk 13:54, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Note ( by EEng ): Smm recently posted the below at the article's Talk -- I'm copying it here to centralize discussion


 * Rationale for KEEPING D'Jais in a nutshell. D'Jais is a significant a part of youth culture on the East Coast of the US. D’Jais is one of the most, if not the most, famous nightclub catering to college age youth on the Jersey Shore. This bar is iconic enough that when the New York Times (which is the most respected newspaper in the Northeast US, read by people in the highly populated NY, NJ, PA, and CT metropolitan areas as well as many across the world) publishes something about an issue affecting Jersey Shore clubs, they contact D'Jais management for an interview. In addition to brief statements used to support the facts included in the Wikipedia D’Jais page, a good amount of the space in some of the 1/2 to 3/4 page NYT articles is dedicated to D’Jais in particular. For instance, two articles feature both pictures and text pertaining to D'Jais (e.g., "Belmar tries to soften effect of summer invasion" features a 1/4 page picture of Frank Sementa in front of D'Jais and "Is Tourism necessary?" includes a picture of Kipp Connor and D'Jais). The quantity of articles referring to D’Jais is also a sign of its significant notability. There are numerous NYT  articles that cover D’Jais and still others in the Asbury Park Press and local papers (e.g., Coast Star, Coaster). Topics covered include issues related to the tourist industry, impact on local community, sandcastle competitions, charity events, regulatory decisions, reviews, club culture, and general news stories. There are also many web sites and blogs that discuss D’Jais at length, but I chose to focus on the highest quality references to document facts. Smm201`0 (talk) 14:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * quote above submitted by EEng. Smm201`0 (talk) 15:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC) I'm striking out the foregoing because it gives the mistaken impression that I wrote the above.  As my introductory note (just above your text above) says, the above is your posting to the article's Talk, copied here to centralize discussion. I've clarified the introductory note to make it clear I did the copying.    EEng (talk) 16:33, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - I checked the New York Times citations given and see no indication of notability. The Times citations, links (where available) and my comments below.
 * 1.^ a b Glickson, G. (1992, September 6). If you're thinking of living in Belmar. New York Times, p. R5. Single mention: "The most popular dining place in town is Evelyn's Seafood Restaurant. D'Jais, Reggie's, Paul's Pub and Tropical Pub are beachfront night spots that attract college students."
 * 3.^ a b c d DeMasters, K. (2002, August 18) By the beach, a club and a club sandwich. New York Times, p. NJ12. Restaurant review, no value in establishing notability
 * - D'Jais, the Belmar bar and dance club, has been a Jersey Shore institution for young people since the 1950's, but some people are surprised to learn it also is an outdoor restaurant with excellent food. The casual restaurant, which has a roof over the tables, overlooks the ocean. The menu has been developed by Mary Fallon, who has cooked for the owner, Frank Sementa, for more than a decade. Mr. Sementa, who played at the club in a local band during the 1970's, bought the establishment in 1979 and added the restaurant 12 years ago I hardly see this as having no value. - Theornamentalist (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it really does have no value. This is an utterly routine, caapsure review of the same kind done by NYT of hundreds of restaurants a year.  Statement "has been a Jersery Shore institution" is the kind of throwaway line found in most reviews.  See WP:CORPDEPTH. EEng (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, when did you gain the rights to say exactly what is a "throwaway line" or what, is in fact "routine"? We are just here to report what other people have reported, not to pick and choose. This bar gets coverage, period. I think the article simply needs a proper rewrite at this point. - Theornamentalist (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Editors use their judgment to decide what is routine and what is significant coverage. "Coverage, period" does not lend notability.  Except where the article is hopelessly promotional, the quality of the article has nothing to do with it -- the question is about the subject -- are there sources that indicate notability.  So far there aren't. EEng (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * 4.^ a b c Dellisanti, A. (1990, May 27). A beach fee dispute and a question: Is tourism necessary? New York Times, p. NJ2.not found in archives
 * 8.^ Robbins, L. (2005, August 29). After break and break up, Clijsters makes a fresh start. New York Times, p. F4. Single mention, where this celebrity is taken to her boyfriend's "favorite dance club"
 * 11.^ Shaheenbelmar, J. (1986, June 8). Belmar tries to soften effect. New York Times, p. NJ22.not found in archives
 * 12.^ Special to the New York Times (1986, June 22) Jersey town shuts bars early - and stirs debates. New York Times,p. 34. Named as an example of a club losing money due to early closings; an 11-word comment from manager Sementa is quoted; not enough for notability
 * (not listed) Where the Party Is Perpetual Single mention as 'a wildly popular club' in an article about summer house sharing, not good enough. --CliffC (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

''' Archives issue. ''' Online article archives may be different from print archives. I located the print articles through a university full text article database. It may be possible to access print archive databases through public libraries.Smm201`0 (talk) 16:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Why should we repeat work you've already done? You've been asked over and over and over to quote, from the articles to which you have spacial access, the bits mentioning D'J, just as CiffC did above. The reason you should do this is that the article titles suggest they would have very little to do with any particular bar, including D'J, and would only mention them in passing.  Even of D'J's owner is the "go-to guy" for quotes on town-tourist friction, that might have something to do with his notability (if this were an article on him), but not the bar.  EEng (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2011 (UTC) P.S. Please don'e misunderstand me as suggesting that you should start an article on the bar's owner.  He'd need a lot more than that to be notable.

 Soliciting others to participate in AfD discussions . EEng, I'm sure that you didn't mean any harm, and just wanted to prove your point, but I believe it is against the rules to specifically solicit people you know to participate in AfDs. Gene93k has already added this discussion to several AfD discussion groups. This should eventually generate additional discussion. Smm201`0 (talk) 18:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, you're wrong -- see WP:CANVASSING, and I clearly said what I was doing (see higher up). This the second time you've accused me of wrongdoing.  Please focus on the debate, not me. You still haven't pointed to the sources lending notability -- all you've done is list the 22 sources in the article.  If the subject is notable, then somewhere in there are 3 or 4 that show that.  Would you please name them and give the quotes mentioning D'j? EEng (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete. The mentions in sources are trivial.  From what I've seen so far, not a single one of these sources is about D'Jais.  Rather, all of the articles are about some other topic, and they just tangentially mention D'Jais.  This is not how notability is built.  Since the New York metropolitan area is so huge, it's possible to find any number of articles that mention D'Jais or any other business in a glancing way.  Stuff such as "this celebrity was seen here" or "these new municipal ordinances affect local businesses" or "young people like to go to hundreds of different places and here are a few of them" does not satisfy notability standards.  (And yes, I know these are not the actual quotes, but this is the meaning of three of the sources.)  If there were a feature piece in the NYT Magazine that was about D'Jais, then it would be one step toward notability.  Then if there were a chapter about D'Jais in a legitimately published (NOT vanity-press) book about the cultural life of New Jersey, that would help.  Then Entertainment Tonight or some other show like that could do a fifteen-minute segment about D'Jais, further establishing notability.  These are not the only possibilities for relevant WP:RS, but these are examples.  So in summary, as the article stands, none of the sources are about D'Jais in any significant and non-trivial way, and all of the mentions of D'Jais in the sources we've seen so far are merely incidental, tangential, and trivial.  So the place is not notable per WP guidelines. Qworty (talk) 20:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Please note that CliffC, Qworty, and OhNoitsJamie were all recruited by EEng to participate in this discussion. Quorty has just gone in and deleted a great deal of well documented content from the article in a very sloppy way. Please go into the "history" section to see pre-Qworty versions of the article.Smm201`0 (talk) 00:12, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You already complained above this (above) and once it enough, especially since it is not, as you claimed above, "against the rules," nor was I "recruiting"; see SP:CANVASSING. I've removed your bolding and underlining as it's calculated to make it seem as if these other editors' opinions are worth less see WP:FAITH.   I made a point of asking one particular editor to take a look, who's very good at finding sources for notability, which is the problem here. EEng (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Qworty, I usually appreciate attempts to improve my work, but you deleted carefully documented facts along with their references. You also made editing decisions about content's accuracy without reading the articles on which the statements were based, and left a lot of typos. I am putting the content back in so that people can see all of the information and references to help them determine whether to keep the article. They may decide the article is fluffy or they may not. I would appreciate it if you would leave it there at least until a delete/keep decision is made. Smm201`0 (talk) 00:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The debate is not about the article but about the sources supporting the notability of the subject. As the AfD notice says, the article can be edited during the debate.  You reference to "my [i.e. your, Smm;s] work" is troubling -- it's not "your" article as you well know.  The material Qworty removed probably doesn't belong; maybe you think it does.  That's a content dispute having nothign to do with notability.  EEng (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment on notability arguments thus far. I have looked at the following arguments for notability on this restaurant. All of them fail, thus:
 * 1)	The place was founded in 1959. I can find no source for this, and even if it were true, the fact that a restaurant with a dance floor has been there for that long would not make it notable.  Looking through the news archives (which convey no notability in themselves), I can find no evidence that a restaurant of this name existed prior to 2003.  Also, it is not likely that a dance place would have been named “D’Jais” in 1959, since the phenomenon of guys known as “DJs” spinning records for people to dance to did not yet exist, and cute spellings such as “D’Jais” also were not common to the era.  The building may well have been there since the 1950s, but despite deep historical research, I am unable to determine what purposes it was put to in those years—which is further evidence that the place, whatever it was, was not notable in those years, and is NOT historically notable.
 * 2)	I have looked at all of the sources. All of them are trivial.  They are tangential one-liners in articles that aren’t about the place, or capsule restaurant reviews which every restaurant receives.  One of the most ridiculous sources, not even a one-liner, but just a phrase, was used over and over again before I took it out, and documented nothing more than the fact that you used to be able to get five beers for a dollar in the place.  No notability whatsoever per WP:RS.
 * 3)	There is no notability—ever—through association—but the original version of this article strained like crazy to establish notability through association, primarily by asserting that somebody who had once played guitar in the restaurant had also played with Bon Jovi. Well, come on.  That’s absurd.  That doesn’t make this restaurant notable.
 * 4)	Also—incredibly--it is being asserted that this restaurant is a tourist attraction. No evidence is given for this wild claim.  It’s hard to imagine planeloads of tourists from Paris or Tokyo flying thousands of miles to see a dance club just because some guy who once played guitar there has also played with Bon Jovi. It just stretches the bounds of credulity to the breaking point.
 * 5)	So far, there has been only one person—from New Jersey—defending this article. From the edits made and the discussion, it looks like this person is a boomer who drank and danced at this restaurant in his youth, enjoying five beers for a dollar, and perhaps seeing on stage a guy who would later become a sideman for Bon Jovi.  However, please note WP:MEMORIAL.  That’s right.  Wikipedia is not a memorial for any editor’s lost beer-drinking boomer-dancing days.  No notability whatsoever per that “reasoning” either.
 * Qworty (talk) 00:34, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Qworty, watch your civility, please. EEng (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm all for civility. Did you see the attack page he built against you, based on this AfD?  Thankfully, it's been speedied now. Qworty (talk) 01:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Gosh, no. What did it say? I'd sure like to have seen it.  They're always so funn yet sad. EEng (talk) 01:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This is one of those rare occasions when I regret that I am not an admin, with the fabled ability to see that which is no longer visible to mortals. --CliffC (talk) 03:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) About the attack page Smm201`0 created regarding editors commenting on this AfD.  Sorry, EEng, but this is all that's left of it:. It was quite an interesting personal rant against you, accusing you, among other crimes against humanity, of being a puppetmaster of a tremendous number of socks, INCLUDING ALL OF THE EDITORS WHO BELIEVE THIS D'JAIS THING SHOULD BE DELETED. And YES, it was created by your new buddy, Smm201`0, the sole defender of D'Jais. The evidence that he was the creator is here:  I think the guy should be banned for this attack on you, but since I was only a tangential victim of it, I'm willing to let it slide. Qworty (talk) 01:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Gee, Smm, is it true you said all these mean things about me? You really should be concentrating on notability sources for D'J, not worrying about me.  EEng (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * He also said that I didn't exist as a human being. That I was just a fictional account that you had made up, so that people would stop flying from all over the world to have a watered-down American beer at D'Jais.  He hurt my little feelings deep down inside me. Qworty (talk) 18:43, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you keep refering to Smm as "he" -- I get much more the impression of a spoiled girl -- maybe a bleach-bottle blonde? EEng (talk) 23:46, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment because I believe this subject meets are general WP:N threshold, I am going to work on it over the course of the next few days. I ask that any admin coming across this to please give some leniency in closing it. Thank you - Theornamentalist (talk) 04:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment See my comments at Articles for deletion/Dustin Moore and Articles for deletion/Christopher Macann. I have seen no work from EEng and Qworty that is not a detriment to Wikipedia. Anarchangel (talk) 09:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Despite the occassional misunderstanding your opinion is not a common one   .  We're all human and sometimes show annoyance, but as least where I've done so it's in the context of some discussion to which I've contributed evidence and arguments (except where, as with Macann, deletion was so obvious that the discussion was over before it began).  You've added nothing here but your hurt over past deletions.
 * So, do you have anything to say about the issue at hand?
 * EEng (talk) 14:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In general, as a long time listserv modder, I've been surprised by administrators' tolerance for personal attacks, misrepresentations, and hatchet jobs euphemistically called "editing", but imagine that their job is so immense, that there is no way to keep on top of all discussions. I image they triage issues and tend to the most potentially catastrophic first. Smm201`0 (talk) 15:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)Smm201`0 (talk) 15:49, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite break

 * I've moved what I've been working on into the mainspace with this edit. Removed advert and COI tag too; anyway, I think that it passes our notability threshold. Also, I've used sources that are only available to view online. Let me know what you think :) - Theornamentalist (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You and I have been discussing your new version on the article's Talk. I disagree that even your original "new" version passes N, much less when the various non-RS sources (e.g. those cut-paste from the bar's website) are discounted.  Please, again, specify exactly which sources you think qualify for notability.  Thankfully, now, most or all are linked from the article, or easily found on Gbooks, so it's apparent exactly what's being said in them. EEng (talk) 16:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Other coverage available.
 * The print and online information looks pretty consistent. Ideally, public libraries would offer online access from home (some probably already do) so print articles would be more easily accessed. Here is the list of references from an earlier version so others can more easily see the coverage of this club (more articles in the APP and local papers as well). I deleted the references already included in the current (02/08/2011) version of the article.


 * Ames, L. (1978, May 7). The lively world of club circuit rock. New York Times, p. NJ28.
 * Bowman, B. (2009, July 16). "Challenge" in Avon to help military families. Asbury Park Press (online).
 * Buckley, C. (2010, June 3). Where the Party Is Perpetual. New York Times. Retrieved February 5, 2011.
 * Cowen, R., & Shih, E. (2007, September 2). Sun, sand, surf combine for a fine end to season. The Record, Bergen County, N.J., p. A01.
 * Dellisanti, A. (1990, May 27). A beach fee dispute and a question: Is tourism necessary? New York Times, p. NJ2.
 * Entertainment/News Editors (2004, July 9). 18th Annual New Jersey Sandcastle Contest Attracts Over 9,500 Visitors; More than 350 Entries of All Ages Competed in Belmar Event. Business Wire, New York, p. 1.
 * Entertainment/News Editors (2003, June 20). Record Turnout Anticipated for 17th Annual New Jersey Sandcastle Contest in Belmar Business Editors/Travel Writers. Business Wire, New York, p. 1.
 * Entertainment/News Editors (2002, June 26). Sand Sculpting Expert to Offer Free Clinic on Building the Perfect Sandcastle. Business Wire, New York, p. 1.
 * Glickson, G. (1992, September 6). If you're thinking of living in Belmar. New York Times, p. R5.
 * Larsen, E. (2007, April 3). Resort towns look for balance. Knight Ridder Tribune Business News, p. 1.
 * McAleavy, T. (1996, Jun 14). Towns teach bouncers a thing or two. The Record, Bergen County, N.J. p. 020.
 * Mikle, J. (2009, June 14). Cheap concerts, free festivals could be music to your ears. Asbury Park Press (online).
 * Robbins, L. (2005, August 29). After break and break up, Clijsters makes a fresh start. New York Times, p. F4.
 * Seidel, B. (2008, October 3). Art News. Asbury Park Press (online).
 * Shaheenbelmar, J. (1986, June 8). Belmar tries to soften effect of summer invasion. New York Times, p. NJ22.
 * Zedalis, J., & Alexander, A. (2005, September 2) Perfect forecast for finale season of surf and sun expected to end on a high note. Asbury Park Press, p. 1. Smm201`0 (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment to EEng I left the message on your talk page, because it pertained to you and was directed towards you. I see no point in removing it from a talk page. By the way, you said copied from which would imply that you had left it on your talk page. Also, the comment left in this discussion above by me was prior to the one left on your talk page. I am aware of where discussions belong.

Aaaaaaaaanyway, here's a breakdown of the websites and how they are used, there are three that I would consider inarguably primarily about D'Jais, and to top it off, all of the supplementary material, which is just as good in cementing this thing. I'll go through the books later tonight.
 * Good. Which three?  As mentioned, I was ready to change my mind about notability until I found that so many sources were not RS e.g. copied from bar's webpage. EEng (talk) 23:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Indented them. - Theornamentalist (talk) 00:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * D'Jais is the example used in the closing times; "popular beachfront bar", not primarily focused, but gives some history in closing time.
 * used for the mailing address; supplementary.
 * Primary focus on D'Jais, history, and menu.


 * town website, history, supplemental.
 * tangential, more about celebrity spotting, supplement.
 * Peoples reactions to D'Jais closing early, "local hot spot D'Jais - and angry Staten Islanders blamed the politico's pointed prose"
 * Primary focus on D'Jais; infamous, "guido-central" describes the property, nightlife, contests.


 * A mistake to use, copy of D'Jais site, however, that can be used.
 * small blurb, used to reference theme nights.
 * information in description not used; only its ranking and title of "Best overall part spot", figured it didn't harm the article to mention its popularity.
 * D'Jais at the center of cities council, history, study conducted by town and ABC, two pages. Primary focus.

- Theornamentalist (talk) 22:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Another news article primarily on D'Jais and subsequent hearing with ABC; The Coast Star, pg. 1 and 14. - Theornamentalist (talk) 01:31, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I looked up the citation listed above from 1978, "The lively world of club circuit rock" because you need to be a subscriber (or pay) to see pre-1980 articles, to see if it had any meat. This is a long article about a rock band called Holme performing at the time in North Brunswick, no mention of D'Jais but two mentions of Sementa (1) when listing the members of the group - "Frank Sementa, the drummer" - and quoting them collectively as agreeing with the guitarist on a point and explaining "the kids like to hear songs they know, things they can identify with, and that's what we give them.  But we also play a few of the songs that we write and arrange ourselves, and they seem to like those as well." (2) The closing paragraph reads "Frank Sementa, drummer for Holme, summed up the situation at the club level.  "It's a nice situation, but it can be a trap," he said.  "You build up a following, you get to like the money.  It can all become so pleasant that you don't take risks, you don't push on."  --CliffC (talk) 03:38, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That article was the source for some factual statements made about the owners in the original article.Smm201`0 (talk) 03:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not characterizing it as a good, bad or indifferent source for D'Jais, I'm just summing it up in the context of this AfD for those who don't have access to the NYTimes' pre-1980 archives. --CliffC (talk)
 * No problem. You just sounded puzzled, so I clarfied. It reported that owners Sementa and Conner were in Holme, and that Luddecke managed bands.Smm201`0 (talk) 13:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.