Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DJ Balli


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  MBisanz  talk 11:03, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

DJ Balli

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Article topic lacks significant coverage from reliable, independent sources. (?) It had no meaningful hits in a custom Google search of reliable music sources. There are no worthwhile redirect targets. czar 19:48, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  czar  19:48, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete as nothing convincing for the applicable notability, too soon at best. SwisterTwister   talk  23:37, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions.  SwisterTwister   talk  23:37, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment-Well the guy does have a Italian wiki page also, might be more notable then we think? I'll just hold my vote. Wgolf (talk) 02:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Having a page in another language in itself doesn't signify anything, especially when it is similarly lacking secondary sources to assert its notability... czar  12:09, 24 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment-I've started to add notable external references (Vice Magazine USA, The Wire Magazine and so on) please acknowledge this. Also there's this new interview for zero.eu magazine http://zero.eu/magazine/intervista-dj-balli/ does it make sense to insert it even if it's in Italian? Djscaphandre (talk) 22:35, 25 April 2016 (UTC) — Djscaphandre (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * We care about sustained coverage (significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources. (?) ) so the small Wire blurb and passing mentions in Vice aren't substantial enough to warrant keeping a page that would rely on primary sources for basic details. And based on your recent edits, I'll just remind that we ask editors to declare any potential conflicts of interest, if indeed you have any relation to the artist/label czar  00:36, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm no Wiki editor and I'm here to learn. I'm a dj, a big fan of Sonic Belligeranza records for sure (not only dj Balli but also other artists released on the label). Regarding The Wire, being subscribed to the Mag I've read articles and records reviews about this artist and his label on different papery issues. I've picked that blurb as you call it since that it's the text accompanying each artist featured on The Wire Tapper, a cd-compilation gathering the best of electronics worldwide.Then if the artist's quotations and pics from Vice article on the Association of Autonomous Astronauts are not considered sustained, maybe the following https://dj.dancecult.net/index.php/dancecult/search/search?simpleQuery=dj+balli&searchField=query on DanceCult journal of electronic dance music published by Griffith University are? As I have time, I'm going add some more references. Djscaphandre (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The one review of his book in Dancecult comes the closest to something in depth (such that we could write something about the book), but with nothing in any depth about his biography or oeuvre aside from a selection by The Wire (blurb, as we're calling it), we don't have nearly enough reliable information with which to write an article. czar  13:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your patience! There´s more about that book http://datacide-magazine.com/cyrus-bozorgmehr-the-rabbit-hole-creative-space-2013-and-other-writings-book-review/#more-3450 and I´ve just added in the text reference to "Sonic Fictions" which is a technique very representative of artist´s oeuvre! Djscaphandre (talk) 15:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * That Datacide ref is what we'd call a passing mention (it doesn't treat the subject in any depth) and "Sonic Fictions" was written by the author. The idea is that we need significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources (?) to write anything substantial about the topic, and we don't appear to have that. czar  18:50, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * My edit wasn't over. Two comments above you wrote "with nothing in any depth about his biography or oeuvre" so I added my last edit about Sonic Fictions technique that is typical of artist's oeuvre. Changing subject, there's this new thing here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Scaphandre#Orphaned_non-free_image_File:VecchioLogoS.B..jpg (Djscaphandre) 15:09, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Right, but the idea is that I could write about my technique too—that's not what makes me a notable figure. Coverage from important sources is what makes a person notable, according to WP. czar  16:42, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * As indicated in external references other two writers, precisely Andrea MuBi Brighenti and Nemeton, aknwoledged this technique as typical of the arist oeuvre (at the interconnection between djing and writing). So we're not talking, as you're putting it just above, about the author talking about his technique! Not to mention "Sonic Fictions" also spawned imitators and a following...Frankly I see potentials for a page here, maybe shorter and more condensed ok, am I still wrong according to you? (Djscaphandre) 22:00, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I said this above, but the only source that covers the artist's work in any depth is the Brighenti book review. If the Vice piece is related, it tells us more about AAA than the artist, and the Wire blurb wouldn't even count as a review. The only sources we have to write this article are then passing mentions, unreliable sources, and stuff written by the artist himself. Other people will chime in, though, if the dialogue doesn't look too ominous. czar 20:48, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - can't find enough in-depth coverage in reliable independent sources to show he meets notability criteria. Please note, if the result of this discussion is delete, Sonic Belligeranza, which is currently a redirect to this page should most likely be restored to its own page, after which it could be nominated for deletion as well. While that might simply waste everyone's time, since I don't feel it meets notability requirements either. We could simply say Delete Both during this discussion. Not sure of the proper procedure, but if it can be done here, I would !vote Delete Both.  Onel 5969  TT me 13:04, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * For sure I' m no WP expert, I've joined some time ago, but never been active really. Debate now seems to have shifted to Sonic Belligeranza records page which is another page I did some edit for. Not enough in-depth coverage from reliable independent sources ok, but 1) how can I add external references to it now that's merged? and 2) I just don't understand why right now there are online other breakcore records labels that have absolutely no in-depth coverage (actually no external references at all!) specified?!? If somebody could explain me this, I'd understand better why to delete this page. For now I just can think about editing it accordingly(Djscaphandre) 22:00, 1 maggio 2016 (UTC)
 * You can unmerge it and add references if you want—but what sources do you have to add? Not sure what you mean about other breakcore record label articles. Do you mean that you don't understand why other articles with less sourcing continue to exist? If they don't have enough sourcing, they should be nominated for deletion too. Editors usually say "other stuff exists", meaning that the existence of another poorly sourced article doesn't justify the existence of another. We focus on one article at a time in a discussion, each on its own merits. czar  22:11, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 06:00, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I did my dissertation - in Italian - at the University about Sonic Belligeranza http://www.c8.com/c8/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12131 so I got a lot of materials: there are more sources spread on different music magazines, Decompression Magazine, Chili Com Carne, more from the Wire and more. Though it's mainly stuff on paper, and as I've just tried here with one of them http://www.exacteditions.com/read/the-wire/april-2008-(issue-290)-3539/60/2/ I can't really redirect I realize......Regarding the merge, I've seen this combination of label/musician  also browsing other breakcore artists page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Forrest. Maybe like in here Cock Rock Disco is a paragraph in the biography, Sonic Belligeranza the label could be a chapter in dj Balli profile, another could be the A.A.A., a third the experimental writing tecnhiques and so on, each with related external references. But I wonder if it makes sense if I embark in this task considering the general discontent here. (Djscaphandre) 15:09, 2 may 2016 (UTC)
 * It could be worth it, but let's look at the sources first. Can you email me a copy of the dissertation if it isn't online? It depends on the source material. If the only coverage of the label is in underground zines and archival sources, it wouldn't have, as we require, "significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources". But otherwise, coverage in offline mainstream/professional publications would be an opportunity to expand the content. I have access to means to verify some source content. (By the way, the Jason Forrest article is atrociously sourced.)  czar  23:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I wanna make clear I brought out the page of the breakcore musician Forrest only 'cause his label (Cock Rock Disco) is a chapter of his biography and that gave me the idea of doing something similar for Dj Balli (one chapter the AAA, one Sonic Belligeranza label, one the new novel out in English translation within this year, etc). When I was talking about poorly sourced pages above I was referring to the ones of other breakcore labels I browsed while studying how things should be done on WP. At the link specified in my previous comment you find index and excerpts of my dissertation and I've just sent you an e-mail with in the body of the message all thesis pasted (I couldn't attach it to the mail!), please confirm you received it. As you can see it's in Italian, so I wonder if also reliable sources not in English are taken into consideration for the Wiki English??? (Djscaphandre) 15:09, 2 may 2016 (UTC)

Got it. Here are the refs:


 * Assante E. - Castaldo G., Blues, Jazz, Rock, Pop. Il Novecento Americano. Guida a musicisti, gruppi, dischi, generi e tendenze,  :Einauidi, Torino 2004.
 * Baumann Z., La Società Individualizzata. Come cambia la nostra esperienza, Il Mulino, Bologna 2002.
 * Balli R., Anche tu Astronauta: guida all'esplorazione indipendente dello spazio secondo l'Associazione Astronauti Autonomi, Castelvecchi, Roma 1998.
 * Balli R., Nubi all’orizzonte, Castelvecchi, Roma 1996.
 * Benedetti A., Mondo Techno, Nuovi Equilibri, Viterbo 2006.
 * Chambers I., Ritmi Urbani. Pop music e cultura di massa, Arcana S.r.l., Roma 2003.
 * De Martino E., Morte e Pianto Rituale. Dal lamento funebre antico al pianto di Maria, Bollati Boringhieri 2000.
 * De Martino E., La terra del Rimorso. Contributo a una storia religiosa del Sud, Il Saggiatore, Milano 2008.
 * Di Carlo G., La Musica Online. La sfida di Internet su diritti, distribuzione, e-commerce e marketing, RCS Libri S.p.A, Milano 2000.
 * Jones A. – Kantonen J., Love Train. La grande storia della Disco Music titolo per titolo, notte per notte, Arcana, Roma 2000.
 * McKey G., Atti Insensati di Bellezza. Le culture di resistenza hippy, punk, rave, ecoazione diretta e altre T.A.Z., Shake, Milano 2000.
 * Middleton R., Studiare la Popular Music, Feltrinelli, Milano 1994.
 * Murray Schafer R., Il Paesaggio Sonoro, Unicopli, Milano 1985.
 * Salvatore G., Techno-Trance. Una rivoluzione musicale di fine millennio, Castelvecchi, Roma 1998.
 * Surian E., Manuale di Storia della Musica vol IV. Il Novecento, Ruggimenti Editore, Milano 1995.
 * Viscardi R., Popular Music. Dinamiche della musica leggera dalle comunicazioni di massa alla rivoluzione digitale, Esselibri S.p.A., Napoli 2004.
 * Xsephone, Tecnologia, tribalismo e forme di nomadismo metropolitano: un’analisi sociologica dei rave illegali, Tesi di laurea 2000-2001, Bepress, Lecce/Milano 2009. I riferimenti a questo documento sono collegati alla versione integrale disponibile sul web al sito www.drexkode.net

We're interested in the sources that go into depth about the label, are reliable (a reputation for fact-checking), and are independent (not written by someone affiliated with the label). Which should we be looking at? czar 18:23, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * In the interest of not having this drag on, an option could be to move both DJ Balli and Sonic Belligeranza to Draftspace where anyone who wants can continue to work on it, and eventually submit it for review if they think it has enough coverage. I'm very, very doubtful that an article can be written on these subjects without a fair amount of original research from primary sources, but if you want to try, I think this is the best option. Otherwise, there seems to be a prima facie lack of significant coverage for these two topics. czar  12:58, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Let's do what you think is best! Only if it's possible to wait some days before making any change, I should be able to prove more reliable sources, I'm just waiting from feedback from some authors I contacted years ago for my dissertation who also dealt with the subject. Also I've found two contributions I did not know: P.Magaudda and R. Shuker https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=sonic+belligeranza&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5 Djscaphandre) 21:02, 6 maggio 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.42.66.194 (talk)
 * So I moved it to Draft:Sonic Belligeranza, where you can work on it and submit it for review when you're ready. Otherwise it'll get deleted in half a year. I'm skeptical about the sourcing—it would need to have a lot more than mentions in a chapter, but you can give it a try if you want. If it goes well, we can redirect the Balli article there, but I think, as of now, we're lacking the sources to keep this one. czar  20:19, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I was waiting to send you a bunch of sources via mail (hope it is ok!) but different authors I've asked them, are keeping me waiting. For now I've just mailed you this single one, since I realize just now, download of it will be over tomorrow. I'll have some more very soon! Djscaphandre) 20:01, 8 maggio 2016 (UTC)
 * I received it but it appears to be only two sentences in a book. We'd call that a passing mention. We're re looking for longer, in-depth article about Balli's importance—does that make sense? czar  18:31, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! I'm just waiting on the others. I give you the most recent example: https://books.google.it/books?id=i_D8sgEACAAJ&dq=strategie+del+rumore+martina+raponi&hl=it&sa=X&redir_esc=y a book about noise music. There's chapter on the subject. Plus some more. Let you know. Djscaphandre) 21:09, 8 maggio 2016 (UTC)
 * Just sent you the above mentioned book (sorry, it took two mails, only the second one is ok!), chapter about dj Balli is 3.3.2.6., pag.94. I'm also waiting for feedback from other authors that have been dealing with the subject. In the meantime, I've updated my knowledge in the issue since my dissertation and found many links on-line I didn't know. I start from the one in French since I could find only two (in addition to artist's Wiki French page) in that language that I can call substantial: 1) http://www.editionsduchemin.net/Magazine/rancid-opera 2) http://www.lyber-eclat.net/lyber/aaa/astrono.html I know this is a text from the author but from the French edition of his book "Anche tu Astronauta" (1998), firstly published in Italian. Djscaphandre) 19:13, 11 may 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't know the Strategie del Rumore publisher, but if it isn't self-published those pages should be good, so we can add that to the Brighenti book review. With those two links—I don't know about the credibility of the first one, and the second one appears to be written by Balli, so that's self-published. czar  01:14, 13 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - While the DJ has picked up a significant amount of fame and has been talked about by a variety of sources, I agree that he's not received the specific kind of reliable source coverage needed for his own page. I see that various blogs, some self-published material, et cetera have explored his work in depth, but that really isn't enough. I don't have a position on taking things into "draft" space, but I don't object if someone wants to try that. This page should be deleted. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 09:56, 17 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.