Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DJ Sharaz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was NO CONSENSUS. Ugh, what a mess. A lot was said here, most of it off-topic. Ultimately, there were only two people making cogent arguments for deletion, and that's not enough to delete. So, keep the article for now, with no prejudice if somebody wants to bring this back to AfD at some point in the future. -- RoySmith (talk) 03:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

DJ Sharaz

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

In accordance with the criteria for musicians and ensembles:

1. Has not been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. Page cites a single about.com interview and I can't find others. Whether an about.com subdomain blog is non-trivial is debatable.

2. Has reportedly had a remix appear briefly on a Billboard genre chart but citations may not be reliable.

3. Has not had a gold record.

4. Has not had non-trivial coverage of a international/national concert tour.

5. Has not released two or more albums on a major record nor one of the more important indie labels.

6. Is not an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, nor a musician who has been a reasonably-prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles.

7. Has not become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style, nor the most prominent of a local scene of a city. (Note: this kind of needs sources for it to be a reason to keep the article.)

8. Has not won, nor been nominated for a major music award. The page cites him as a nominee for something called the International Dance Music Awards at the Winter Music Conference but this is arguably not a major award.

9. Has not won, nor placed in a major music competition.

10. Has not performed music for a work of media that is notable.

11. Has not been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio nor music television network.

12. Has not been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across national radio nor TV network.

This article was recently a PROD which was contested (by a removal of the template) but I agree it is not notable enough for WP. Radiodef (talk) 06:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The IDMAs are considered of particular note over on the Wiki EDM page. These are significant awards for artistic achievement in electronic music since there is no such thing as the electronic dance Grammys or an AMW specifically for dance music. This is EDMs version of those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 06:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep: WP doesn't make a distinction as to what "genre" a Billboard charted track shows up in, only that the artist in question has some kind of measurable chart success. There is also no minimum time the work stays on the charts. In this case it was several weeks with one week at #1 - WP only specifies that the work be charted, not a #1 or a Top 20 single or album. The subject is a dance music artist and his achievement showed up, appropriately, on Billboard's Dance Music chart.


 * Keep: I also vote KEEP. I've read the requirements and it's clear this artists work has been charted on Billboard which is one of the litmus tests for inclusion on WP. One one requirement is necessary. -Art Davis   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.209.13.66 (talk) 03:01, 18 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep: Exactly what was being advertised? Can you expand on that please because reading the entry and also previous versions seem to read like any other artist page (I.e. Avicii, Skrillex, etc). I didn't find any links to anything for sale or being advertised.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1006:B11C:CA19:94FB:7EFC:677B:B57A (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What was being advertised was the artist's picture at the very top of the [Electronic Dance Music] page. It was by no means, a good picture. The picture quality wasn't great, nor was the subject. However, due to some anonymous users vehemently re-linking the picture to the top of the page seemed to indicate advertising. Ṝ ed M ark V iolinist Drop me a line 04:31, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Not sure how you deem this an "advertisement" when the photo has there since 2006 - the majority of those seven years without any reference at all to the artist actually in the photo. I am the one who tagged him in the photo as it was only appropriate to do so. Apparently that irritated you enough to come over here to raise questionable objections and try to get his page deleted. Your snarky comment above: "The picture quality wasn't great, nor was the subject" just reinforces my suspicion your motives for deletion are of a personal nature and not academic. I really don't know what gives you the authority to show up out of the blue and remove a photo that has been there for seven years under the objection that it was an "advertisement". It's hardly such if the photo sat anonymous all this time. I'll probably reinstate it again when I get a few minutes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 07:15, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep: I would like to remove the PROD flag and deletion notice within the next 24 hours unless someone can provide proof the article about Billboard is a fake or somehow inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sotoma665 (talk • contribs) 02:33, 20 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep: No objection here to removing the the deletion tags. Can someone please reinstate his association with Afrika Bambaataa and the link to his mention of producing for him in Electronic Music Magazine? Not sure why this was removed - probably a subversive tactic make it appear there is no other notable production accomplishment regarding the artist. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 17:27, 20 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete: I went through the entire list of references, and only one of them could even remotely pass as reliable. Seems as though a few unregistered users are attempting to keep it up by posting photos of the subject on other pages, and using his page as advertisement. Ṝ ed M ark V iolinist Drop me a line 06:24, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've tried to organize this page a little more. I'd really like to see some input from a more experienced user about why to keep the page, as the IP addresses posting here aren't familiar with our standards for notability involving references. Just to add, it seems as if the IP addresses have been following this artist for a while. Association, a few scattered nominations, and remixes don't make a notable artist. Ṝ ed M ark V iolinist Drop me a line 04:20, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * "I'd really like to see some input from a more experienced user about why to keep the page..." I agree. Without making accusations of only WP:SPA, it is worthwhile to note that all editors wanting to keep the page either have no edit history or have a strong history of primarily editing the page in question.

As for the standards of notability, #2 states: "Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart." The Bradenton Herald article referenced above does definitively discuss the artist's production being cause for the Billboard charting. Doing garden variety remixes are one thing, having remixes commissioned by the subsidiary of a major label and then having that remix not only chart on Billboard, but end up in the #1 slot is significant. I don't come up with the rules here but this satisfies the requirement. If the IDMA are not of note, then no one will have any objection to me blanking its mention from the electronic dance music page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 07:01, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * He had a remix of his end up on someone else's album end up on Billboard, not his own album or his own single. This does not meet the standards of notability, plain as day. Ṝ ed M ark V iolinist Drop me a line 20:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Unless you can bring something substantive to the conversation, I'm removing the deletion tags. WP doesn't make the distinction you're talking about. For instance, Dr. Luke produces music for other people that ends up on Billboard - his name is only in production or writing credits. You're muddying the roles of artist vs producer. Sharaz's production work...ended up on Billboard, and this is absolutely no different. If you cannot make this very basic logical connection, that's your problem, not mine or Mr. Sharaz's. Again, unless you have something substantive and relevant to talk about, let's move on. To avoid this going into perpetuity, I suggest you move on to greener pastures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 02:16, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Due to Wikipedia rules, you can't actually remove the tags. So if you do, I'll be warning you for Vandalising the page. This is what goes on on Wikipedia, if someone believes (as Radiodef and I) an article to not meet the criteria for notability, then we follow the rules of WP:AFD. Just because you don't believe it is correct that DJ Sharaz's page should be deleted does not mean you have the ultimate say in whether to keep his page or not; hence, the process we have here. If you don't like the rules here, please move along, and have a wonderful rest of your day. Ṝ ed M ark V iolinist Drop me a line 02:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Do not remove the AFD template. We have been through this before. For that matter, removing the template does not close the AFD and the template will just be replaced by a bot like the last time you tried to remove the template. An AFD can only be closed by a moderator. Radiodef (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Your counterpoints get weaker and weaker which is why you've stopped responding to valid points. You have nothing else. Go meddle with someone who won't address your ridiculous arguments and fabrications. Why did you delete the Afrika Bambaataa reference from Electronic Music Magazine? Scared it might bolster the other side's defense? You still haven't responded to this. You and RadioDef have been removing article information on the DJ Sharaz page to fit your position (whilst accusing others', including myself, of "advertising" the subject with zero proof to back up your assertions) - which makes both of you complicit in willful obfuscation in order to prove your point. Again if IDMA isn't "arguably" a notable award why don't you remove the reference from the EDM page where you like to troll so much? Seems you should probably stick to military history and leave the EDM music discussion to those of us who actually know what's going on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 04:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The song in question was a retail single, not an album - please do proper research! Mr. Violin deemed this page "unnotable" when he blanked the photo over at the Electronic Dance Music page, which was before he came over here and opened the discussion. He also called the photo "self-promotion" and still hasn't explained how he arrived at that conclusion. Does he have any proof it was self promoting? Does he even know who placed the photo there and when? This was an assumption. It's quite accusatory and the allegation was cast without any proof. His comments above about the subject and the photo are bizarre. The blanking of an article mentioning the subject that appeared in a long-standing national publication covering electronic music and electronic musicians is very bothersome, especially if it was deleted by one of the editors objecting to the page. Who deleted it and why? Mr Violin also hasn't been able to successfully dispute the article deemed above as being not "reliable". Did he call the organization to see if it exists and is not a fabrication? I highly doubt this since he won't even admit to its veracity despite proof to the contrary. I think several people here have introduced valid points - I also am of the belief that the producer made the song what it was and that's why it charted where it did. The Dr. Luke analogy is a good one BTW. People produce hits for other artists, happens all the time. Sharaz produced a #1 Billboard hit for Fierce Ruling Diva. Simple as that, and I don't see where there's a basis for an argument unless the whole story is a fabrication. You can't take that accomplishment away from the guy. Not many people can say they produced a #1 Billboard track. Mr. Violin using words above like "briefly appeared on a genre chart" are unnecessary as wiki doesn't say how long a song or album needs to be charted, only that it did. Genre charts are allowed here, too, so I'm not sure why that was even mentioned. Anyway, trying to be fair and that's my view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sotoma665 (talk • contribs) 06:04, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Lastly (and semi related) I've been on here for a little while and am still not sure exactly how to sign posts so my apologies but will try to do so in the future. Sotoma665 (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  hmssolent lambast patrol records 11:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions.  hmssolent lambast patrol records 11:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  hmssolent lambast patrol records 11:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.  hmssolent lambast patrol records 11:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2014 (UTC)



OK so let’s recap - producing a #1 Billboard single isn’t notable, producing for one of the godfathers of hip hop isn’t notable, producing singles for a subsidiary of a major record label isn’t notable, real newspaper articles verifying this don’t really exist, and if you’re not written about in TMZ’s superstar DJ blog, you’re not notable either. Oh and being nominated by one of the biggest worldwide EDM award-givers isn’t important. Not to mention that this producer traveled back in time to 2006 to plaster an anonymous image of himself on an EDM wiki page for the purpose of "self promotion". Great! I think I got it. Probably 2/3rds of the musicians (especially session musicians) on WP need to be blanked then. Forgive my sarcasm, I can’t help it after reading through this entire argument. Just so I’m clear to everyone, I feel the article be kept here on WP, the defenders have done an admirable job of telling us why the subject should stay. 174.47.33.226 (talk) 18:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Going down these one by one:


 * Producing a #1 Billboard single.


 * There are a number of reasons this could be a questionable reason for notability. Using Dr. Luke as an example (because somebody mentioned him), you will notice Dr. Luke production discography does not list chart history (compare to Paul McCartney discography). Dr. Luke is on WP because he has major awards and nominations and more generally has been covered in lots of publications. Note that remixing is not the same as being the artist. For matters of attribution, Billboard considers them different. Billboard considers it a #1 hit for Fierce Ruling Diva. Producing #1 hits may not be a reason for Dr. Luke to be on WP either. If DJ Sharaz had his own song on Billboard it would be different. That's just how Billboard works.


 * Producing for one of the godfathers of Hip-Hop.


 * I'm not sure what this is referring to. Tommy Boy Records? This smells like WP:PEACOCK. And as I've said before, being on a remix album is not the same thing as being on an artist roster.


 * Producing singles for a subsidiary of a major record label.


 * Again, peacock. The phrase used in the article is "remixes have been provided by Sharaz" which is not the same thing as being on an artist roster. Furthermore, I cannot find a reference for the association. All sources I can find on Google that state this use the exact same phrase and appear copy and pasted from the WP article. (For example which even says "Source: Wikipedia".)


 * Real newspaper articles verifying this don’t really exist.


 * Nobody said it doesn't exist. This seems like a poor attempt at reductio ad absurdum. What has been said is the article is hosted on DJ Sharaz's personal website which makes it questionable for WP. For example, if this were allowed, then somebody could fake an article and there are absolutely people that would do that. I do not know DJ Sharaz and so I do not know if he would or would not do that. As editors we can not and do not make judgments like that so this kind of thing is not appropriate. The authenticity of the source in question can not be determined.


 * If you’re not written about in TMZ’s superstar DJ blog, you’re not notable either.


 * This is of course an exaggeration of the notability requirement but it's true that DJ Sharaz has not been covered by major news outlets.


 * Being nominated by one of the biggest worldwide EDM award-givers isn’t important.


 * There are major awards that electronic music is eligible for and many electronic artists have major awards. This is, again, peacock. DJ Sharaz had a nomination for a minor award.


 * Lastly, for non-involved editors that may be reading this discussion, no blanking has occurred or is intended. Calling anything blanking in this discussion is either an insinuation or ignorance of terminology. Radiodef (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Not changing my position on the Billboard thing. His music, written for someone else for-hire on a subsidiary of a major label, was charted on Billboard. If you really want to split hairs, why don't you compare his version to the original? Red herring.

Which awards are we talking about then? You are overly broad here with no specifics, only "There are major awards that electronic music is eligible for and many electronic artists have major awards." IDMA is an industry award, overseen by EDM industry people at one of the most important EDM music conferences in the world. These are the ONLY official awards at WMC. I think you are forgetting that. You've determined it to be a minor award for the purposes of this discussion, and only to support your argument. If these are minor awards, delete its mention, please, from the EDM page. You are contradictory - it's important enough to remain there but of little importance when it comes to this artist? At least be consistent. Red herring.

No idea what peacock means, please use plain english. Some of us have lives and little time to geek around WP. You obviously have no intention of verifying the article over at the supplying newspaper, only to keep harping on where it was hosted. Considering you seem to be a online search warrior only, I'm not surprised. Something as simple as picking up the phone to verify with the news outlet would be sufficient - instead you'll waste everyone's time and energy here with another red herring. Call The Bradenton Herald and ask for a copy. 941-748-0411 is their phone number. Until then stop saying "The authenticity of the source in question can not be determined." You've been provided a way to accomplish this.

As I said previously, this seems like a personal vendetta - basically you got upset I tagged a seven year old EDM photo with someone whom you don't like. And yes, you blanked the article to EMM with regard to Afrika Bambaataa, not Tommy Boy (if you'd read the comments above you would have known this). Not sure why you did that, but it appears to me an attempt to gut the article so it looks as if few or no citations exist (which is basically a lie) and ultimately achieve your objective of deleting the page. There's probably some kind of rule around here prohibiting that kind of subversion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 17:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - the notability guidelines for music are not hard and fast rules. As stated in the guideline istelf, Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. These are merely rules of thumb used by some editors when deciding whether or not to keep an article that is on articles for deletion.  I don;t see that he has won any significant awards; he as a remix chart on a minor Billlboard chart; hasn't had a lot of coverage in independent reliable sources.  As such, I don't see that notability is met. -- Whpq (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

What does "minor" have to do with the context? There's no distinction here, only your own. On the flipside, the Billboard Hot Dance Singles Chart is the most prestigious and the most well-known of all dance charts, and probably the most difficult to crack. So it's not "minor" as you say (which shouldn't factor in at all). So, by that measure, it's a major chart and a major accomplishment with regard to this style. This chart position is quoted in quite a few other EDM bios as well. So are the IDMAs. One set of rules for one group of people, another set of rules for the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.9.22.244 (talk) 19:12, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Keep. However I would be much more inclined to give the naysayers a little more weight if it didn't appear all of them are very poorly versed about the EDM scene & they know even less about Florida EDM/break beat history. With all due respect, I am not interested in listening to a bunch of people who spend their days editing military pages telling us what is and what is not important in the EDM scene. Their Wikipedia editing history seems to have very little to do with what we are talking about here. It appears to me all three contributors suggesting deletion spend nearly all of their time editing pages dealing with military and war history, not dance music or EDM, let alone breakbeat history. This should not be a learn as you go endeavor for them. 2600:1006:B111:6166:5A5:2F0E:68D9:3124 (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Just because the majority of my edits occur on Military History-related subjects, does not mean that I cannot tell if an article meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines. While yes, I do not have as much experience with Florida's EDM/Breakbeat history, I do however, understand Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Vice versa, the only ones voicing opinion for this page to be kept are all unregistered IP's that have not been around Wikipedia enough to understand the correct notability guidelines. Just because one has followed someone's career for 15 years does not make them notable. Ṝ ed M ark V iolinist Drop me a line 00:31, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

While you may have, as you say, experience with WP's notability guidelines, you obviously are having a difficult time resolving the relative importance of certain happenings within the EDM community. Way before this was turned into the commercialized circus it is today, EDM was made of up primarily independent artists and labels (it actually still is for the most part although you wouldn't know that by casually looking around). For ANY independent, self-funded artist to make his or her way to a major label, or even positIon #100 on any Billboard chart (even the niche ones) back then was a huge accomplishment. These artists didn't have endorsement deals, PR agents, access to Top 40 radio and lots of coverage like they do today, so I would say it's somewhat disingenuous to look at it from that point of view, rather try and view it by what was occurring at the time. I've been to the Winter Music Conference around 10 or 11 times and I'm one of the few people who actually go there to join the panels, and the IDMAs are considered pretty much top of the food chain within that industry. Just because they've started giving highly publicized Grammy awards to DJs, that should not trivialize the importance of an IDMA within the scope of the electronic music industry itself (like IFMCAs with regard to music composed for film) - industry peer awards like these are extraordinarily important, and that type of nomination or award carries enough weight to further the producer's career. In other words, there are some things specific to EDM being waved off here that are not as insignificant as you wish to believe. By Grammy or American Music Awards standards IDMA is tiny. But with regard to that particular piece of the industry, it's one of the biggest awards there is. By the way, I've not been just following this artist, but quite a few of them for the better part of a decade and a half. They are very small by Rihanna standards but are hugely important and influential to people who have spent a lot of time following this type of music. As far as being unregistered, I simply do not want another user name and password in my life - I have a hard enough time keeping track of them as it is. 108.9.22.244 (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.