Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DM Ashura


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus. --bainer (talk) 03:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

DM Ashura
Closer's notes

In determining the final consensus, the comments of several users were disregarded: There were two issues in this debate: As such, the result of the debate was no consensus. Further, since the arguments about sources were not addressed, the article will be tagged with unreliable. The application of this tag should be treated as part of the result of this debate and should not be removed until the concerns raised below have been addressed.
 * The very new user, whose only contributions are to this AfD and the article in question;
 * The user, who claims to be the subject of the article in question.
 * On the issue of notability, a majority of users were of the opinion that the subject was sufficiently notable to warrant keeping the article. Several users were satisfied the subject met the WP:MUSIC guideline. Debate on this point was, on the whole, in favour of keeping the article.
 * On the issue of verifiability, several users raised concerns that the article was not based on truly independent, non-trivial sources. These concerns were not addressed by those in favour of keeping the article. Debate on this point was in favour of deleting the article.

DM Ashura is a Bemani fan known for making remixes of songs. A few of his songs are now in DDR, but I don't think that makes him "notable". In any case, unless Konami included a short bio in the Ultramix 4 booklet, I don't think anything but the fact that he made these songs is verifiable. --SPUI (T - C) 02:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment: After discussion with the creator of the page and some improvement, I think the page is looking better. Moogy   ( talk )  03:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

5. Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers (although university newspapers are usually fine), personal blogs, etc.). <---02Jam and Dance Dance Revolution Ultramix 4. 9. Has won or placed in a major music competition. <---Broadjam Contest mentioned on the page. MarsPhoenix 02:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep WP:MUSIC A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:


 * Delete and redirect to Dance Dance Revolution ULTRAMIX 4. Googling DM Ashura, as far as I can tell, turns up only one verifiable fact about DM Ashura: that he has a song on DDR Ultramix 4.  That fact does not merit an entire article, and is expressed just fine in the DDR Ultramix 4 page.  --Hyperbole 02:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Googling "Bill Shillito" comes up with a few more verifiable facts. I already added one source from that search to the page. Pumeleon 08:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * comment Search for the BroadJam and 02Jam stuff. It's there. MarsPhoenix 03:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Go here for proof of my song in O2Jam, please note the DTX information is outdated though. Go here for proof of the Broadjam contest.  Also, is an artist's official webpage reliable as a source for notability? Bill Shillito 03:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Fraid not, Bill, because it doesn't represent an independent (i.e. unconnected to the subject of the article) source. For more info on what would work, see WP:V and WP:RS. The problem is, the only place your music is really mentioned in significant sources of any kind is just mentions that it's appeared in these two music games, which is not really enough for an article. (And to User:MarsPhoenix, the line in WP:MUSIC about appearing in multiple non-trivial published works is referring to being mentioned in something like a newspaper article, not having their own work released in a game or on an album). Unfortunately, I'm not sure if even the BroadJam piece qualifies, because as it stands I can't actually find much evidence for notability of BroadJam itself (it doesn't even have its own article yet, but I'm not dismissing the possibility that the notability is there but no-one's written the article yet). Confusing Manifestation 03:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * My argument as for the "major"ness of the music contest is that the winners were featured in what is possibly the most well-known and best-selling music game franchise in the world. Here's another link to the contest from a Konami page:  DDR Contest  As for appearing in music games, is there a number of music games that would be "enough" for an article, considering some other artists in the "Bemani music" category? Bill Shillito 04:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * comment Third party sources indicating notability, in this case, need to be something other than your own creation (a personal website), a DDR official, or Konami feature. If you had a Third Party, by that criteria, review, award, or mention of another reputable or notable source then that would satisfy the requirements. -- wtfunkymonkey 05:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * comment for the time being I am going to abstain from voting, until more arguments are made and I have a chance to research more. |This is approaching the type of material needed, but the IGN article itself does nothing to attest to you or your song's notability. Something indicating your material's uniqueness or importance would do nicely, however. -- wtfunkymonkey 05:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. Comparing this to other articles on Bemani artists, this one seems to have even more information than most, though more sources couldn't hurt. What keeps this from being a weak keep or neutral is the fact that this was put up on AfD very shortly after its creation leads me to question the faith of the nominator, who is a fairly well-known troll in the Bemani community, and has a very long history of bad faith actions here. As for the sources, the Broadjam page linked to on the article does refer to the song and the artist in question, and the artist is not a Konami employee, so the reference would be third-party. --Core desat 16:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - fan known for making remixes of songs, has a song on DDR. Trollderella 17:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable individual beyond possibly needing a one sentence ref in DDR. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 19:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment He's a liscensed artist, he can't be stuck into Ultramix 4 page. He's going to be releasing an album in less than a month, so what would be the point of deleting it only to reopen it in a matter of days? Not to mention that he's notable by those WP rules. MarsPhoenix 21:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets notability criteria. I suggest we merely add sources. Pumeleon 10:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC) [Forgot to sign after login]
 * Redirect per Hyperbole; nn. Eusebeus 00:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Why redirect him to Ultramix 4 page? There are no other artists on there, plus he's a lisenced artist. MarsPhoenix 00:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep I think the notability of this artist has been proven, what with his work being featured in 4 published games, and a CD due out next month. We may need some sources to satisfy the credibility of the article, but this isn't anything that won't be handled soon enough. DarkProdigy 02:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm leaning towards keep. The fan-done-good angle is probably sufficient notability in itself. Potential shortness of the article is a worry but that can be debated at a later date. Definitely wouldn't back a delete at this stage. Sockatume 05:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Alas it seems there isn't any citable stuff out there on the "fan-done-good" angle, so that basis for a keep doesn't hold water. Sockatume 17:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per MarsPhoenix. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per MarsPhoenix and Coredesat. Very notable if you actually think about it. ~ Ed   Boy [p]\[m]/[c] 03:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. Kind of a weak delete. Lots of other Bemani artists don't have dedicated articles, especially in the cases where a particular artist only has a couple of songs in a game. I'll concede that the "fan done good" angle is a potential reason to keep it around. At the very least, the unverified (and likely unverifiable) research and obvious vanity bio should be removed or revised.Drano 14:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge unless if you can write more than five reliably sourced sentences about him. Ashi b aka tock 05:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Done. Most of the article is sourced. Pumeleon 09:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. This article contains much more information than many other Bemani artists, and as Pumeleon has said earlier, it meets the notability criteria. Just add a few sources and it will be fine. Also, to add onto this, keep per The Pokémon Test. DM Ashura is, in the eyes of many, more notable a Bemani artist than many others. The page should stay on this note alone.Bkid 11:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The article contains much more "information" (read: arguably unnecessary biographical stuff) than other Bemani artist articles, but it's not like there are any sources for most of it. If the article is going to stay, the unverifiable stuff definitely needs to be dumped. Drano 09:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Question - is it the fact that he's been licensed for DDR specifically that's making him "notable", or that he's been licensed for a rhythm game? If the latter, I'm going to write arch0wl - he has songs in O2Jam too. --SPUI (T - C) 15:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. First, please bold your first word so everything is easier to read. Thanks. :) Now to answer your question: He's "notable" because, minus any Bemani connections, he is still a up and coming musician that is very well known (although mostly just throughout the Bemani community). His success may spread later so that he is well known thoughout any music community, but we can't tell the future, now can we? So are you saying let's not give him a page until he's "really really really" famous? And who decides when that is? Bkid 00:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going into academic research, I could be really famous some day. Do I get an article? As for "who decides when he is": usually the measure is whether the press have said enough about someone to write a decent encyclopedia article about them. Sockatume 01:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * But have you done any big research yet? DM Ashura has made plenty, and I mean PLENTY of songs already. His talent is pretty obvious to me. MarsPhoenix 03:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with talent. I don't think anyone would consider that a reason to keep an article around. Drano 09:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You just argued "His success may spread later so that he is well known throughout any music community.". As I say, this is not a valid argument. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Sockatume 17:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment A redirect here doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, as others have noted. One, there aren't any other artists mentioned on the pages suggested to redirect to, and two, such a redirect seems out of place—I know it has been suggested in past AfDs for Rob Levin, which was thought to be unreasonable by Jimbo and others.  This isn't the same situation at all, but the point remains that a redirect doesn't seem to be a good solution.  I think Coredesat and MarsPhoenix said everything else very well.  In repsonse to SPUI, keeping in mind WP:POINT, creating another article "because DM Ashura exists" doesn't seem to be very sound reasoning.
 * Note, the previous comment was added by me, although I forgot to sign it and log in. Oops. dougk  (Talk ˑ Contribs) 03:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment Additional information now added about inclusion in V-Rares, which are Konami's promotional CD's they release for each Bemani game. Bill Shillito 09:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Smells too much of OR to me, and when I try Google I get either (a) Wikipedia and clones, (b) chat from assorted fans on assorted NN boards, or (c) stuff from DM Ashura himself. Show us real notability in the form of clear references outside "captured" media, and I'll vote the other way. WMMartin 16:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "captured" media? Bill Shillito 17:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * comment Original research with six seven references on a one-page article. What, precisely, qualifies as OR in your view? There is very little here that is not backed up by another source. There is very little new knowledge. The only thing that qualifies would be the album's listing. But that's going to be rectified after the site update on dmashura.com. Pumeleon 19:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment DMAshura recently contacted me to discuss his case. He's got some pertinent points to make, but felt uncomfortable adding them to the deletion debate on his own article, so I'll be summarising and presenting them on his behalf.Sockatume 19:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) This is a notability-based discussion. DMAshura asserts he has notability at least equal to Konami's in-house DDR composers, who have their own (significantly stubbier) biographies on the Wikipedia. Therefore, unless the AfD is expanded to encompass those articles, his own should not be deleted. As evidence: He is one of four artists to win a Konami-organised competition to have his work included in a DDR title.  . He is the only one of the four comissioned by Konami to provide additional material the game, beyond his competition entry. He is also the only one of the four to have his work included in Konami's "V-Rare" CDs, produced to promote upcoming DDR releases.


 * 2) DMAshura's case for notability is not limited to his work on DDR, specifically he has provided music for O2Jam. The producers of O2Jam assert that he is notable in the "beat game" (music game) community.


 * 3) Argument against merging. Given the lengths of the discographies of the various artists, merging the biographies into a list article would be unwieldy.

Strong Keep per all above points. Sharkface217 03:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.