Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daggerspawn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Daggerspawn

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

There doesn't appear to be anything notable about this band. Irbisgreif (talk) 02:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Well, it appears to be a notable band to me, per the images and the refs.   Burningview    ✉  02:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How exactly do photographs show a notable band? Ironholds (talk) 03:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Band is very famous here in Serbia, and all neighbouring countries and made a breakthrough to the worldvide scene this year thus it deserves a page for future reference.. i am sorry if i made some mistakes in formating of the page it's my first page ever made.. if u still feel is for deletion, ok its your buisiness to evaluate pages, so i'll understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gruesomedeath (talk • contribs) 02:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In fact, this is a discussion page, so you are welcome to say what you know and help improve the page. We generally don't allow pages "for future reference" (WP:CRYSTAL). However, if the band is notable, there won't be a problem. If a page gets improved from a deletion discussion, that's a good outcome, in my opinion. Irbisgreif (talk) 02:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, fails WP:MUSIC. Of the references only one is a reliable, third-party source that covers the subject in detail, and WP:MUSIC requires multiple sources. Ironholds (talk) 03:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete "How exactly do photographs show a notable band?" Brilliant! I'm afraid there's not enough notability yet for this article. Even Serbian Google yields less than breadcrumbs. Rafablu88  03:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was hoping someone would spot that :p. Ironholds (talk) 03:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

but its ok, after all its for the best, if no control this site would be full of individual opinions and all relating clutter...Gruesomedeath (talk) 03:48, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, however concerning our country and it's internet content that is pretty low (comparing with other european countries), tv stations and movie databases about our cinema or music are dim, just because people here just dont go organizing data online or poorly administrate their news feed...some of the greatest metal bends are of this european region - but until large record label picks them up u cant fing nothing about them. This band particulary is one of the 5 bands voted as 9/10 album battleboard for first half of 2009!Gruesomedeath (talk) 03:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If we can find nothing on them, we can't have an article. Our inclusion criteria for music is based around finding sources. Ironholds (talk) 03:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ok as i noted in above post, its your buisness people, to monitor articles...just i always looked on wikipedia as a Practical thing, a SOURCE of info not a thing needing sources..i wonder how people wrote "Serbia" page..When Americans were bombing us, every TV station in the world was publishing different storyline...that creates a really "solid" sources..
 * And one more..sorry for size. If u take a look at serbian band Tales Of Dark wiki entry how exactly they qualify? Lover google finds, smaller record label with no worldwide distribution.. DS "Suffering Upon..." is worldwide release, has merch packs, people from Cannibal Corpse (Alex Webster), Tirant Sin, influenced its release! That got to count for something...Gruesomedeath (talk) 03:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Unfortunately, we can go only by what we can search. I understand your comment about Tales of Dark but we can't use other articles to prove this one should be included as per WP:OTHERSTUFF. In fact, that one should have its AfD nom, too! Finally, I would advise you to find printed media like magazines that have covered Daggerspawn if you still think they are notable but would not have had internet coverage due to Serbia being poor on that account. Rafablu88  04:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I added some sources today, and tomorow i will add more of the printed media issues, but i dont have them all for writing down exact page of articles. Is that going to be a problem? also i will include their official website ( but if the wabsite has no article of the band, is that going to be off-topic or not?). Thanks a lot.Gruesomedeath (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I sorted out your references section and removed my delete conclusion temporarily. I see no reason why a weak keep/keep conclusion cannot be arrived at, provided, of course, you incorporate information/citations from the references you have added/will add. Rafablu88  20:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * CommentI added more sources i found, went to my neighbour and used the citations he had in couple of our metal magazines..i know a lot of serbian newspaper where the band appeared, but i dont know the author - to shorten, should i put that into consideration and where in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gruesomedeath (talk • contribs) 03:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, you need to translate into English what you have added from Nocturne. Second, the Butcherian Vibe ref needs an article title, author, and date. Finally, more citations are needed from the sources you have added in the article's text. Don't be afraid to remove text as less is usually more if it is nicely sourced. Rafablu88  18:42, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: I hope less is more, since I just made the article more by making it less--I hope. I started editing this and didn't even notice the AfD template. Drmies (talk) 22:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete for lack of reliable sources proving notability, and for not passing muster on the release-test (two releases on a notable label). Drmies (talk) 22:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The Band signed for both record labels, if u google it Butchered records is a sub-label of Sevared.Record labels are notable as thay signed more than a dozen famous bands in their respective genre.Gruesomedeath (talk) 02:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: the band is not notable. I claim that as perhaps the greatest contributor to the articles about Serbian metal bands. Gruesomedeath's comments about the band being very famous in Serbia and the neighbouring countries simply aren't true. I guess they have a certain numer of fans, but there are dozens of Serbian metal bands that are more notable, more famous, signed for bigger record labels and don't have their article on Wikipedia. Ostalocutanje (talk) 01:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Serbia does not have a dozen notable bands in this genre. And by which bigger record label those bands released? "Big" serbian labels dont release technical death metal, and dont have a credibillity of an American worldwide distribution labels.Gruesomedeath (talk) 02:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Serbia has a dozen notable metal bands, but almost all of them have their article on Wikipedia. And there are still dozens of Serbian metal bands more notable than this one. If you're talking about death metal, the fact that Serbia doesn't have a notable death metal band doesn't mean we should create articles about some of them even if they're not notable enough. As far as I know, One Records has a number of extreme metal, including death metal, releases. Ostalocutanje (talk) 12:37, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm withdrawing my nomination, as I think some good sources have been added; however, the concerns of Ostalocutanje mean I can't exactly put up a keep. Irbisgreif (talk) 15:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I claim that Irbisgreif is not well versed in serbian metal scene, for he speeks of notability of all bands through serbian labels. Nothing personal, he is exellently versed in serbian popular rock/metal culture, but he quotes labels that dont have as much contact with world distribution as international ones and thus cannot compete with them. Also a few death metal releases of One Records were in the begining rise of the label, but this label stopped releasing anything now similar to death metal. There are bands famous enough to be mentioned here, considerring the strict policies of Wikipedia, this list i downsized to 3-4 bands. The article Serbian death metal musical groups needs to be refreshed since the bands in Serbian music including the group mentioned above have progressed during these years. I personaly monitor this scene for over 10 years now, and many bands just sought international labels, thus escaping interest of Serbian press, already not interested in not so profitable genre.Gruesomedeath (talk) 20:37, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:MUSIC. The label is not a notable indie, despite some claims to the contrary above, and there is simply isn't sufficient coverage in independent, third-party sources (which naturally exlcudes all webzines). Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Offcourse it's not Nuclear Blast, but record label is what would be called notable today.[Sevared on Spirit of metal],and [Sevared on Discogs] except the discogs entry has not been detaily modified.Gruesomedeath (talk) 00:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but Sevared is not a notable indie, by any standards. "Spirit of Metal" is clearly not a reliable source, and the Discogs link simply highlights the fact that the label doesn't have a historical roster of notable bands. Wikipedia is not for advertising, and at present Daggerspawn are yet another garage band... that is unless you can find multiple, independent, third-party sources to say otherwise (i.e. discounting webzines). I had a look and couldn't see any myself, but if you can, please do so and the article may stand a snowball's chance of surviving this AfD. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Note to editors About the notability, i know that probbably every day this or that editor can jump in and put this discussion right back to the start, fact is this is an active serbian band, one of the rare serbian bands that managed to catch an American label specialised for this type of music, one of the few bands form Serbia that have a worldwide distribution, thus I really think they deserve to be put here. To the label the band was introduced by Dennis John, vocalist of Tirant Sin,(on one of our serbian forums there is a picture of him in a daggerspawn T-Shirt! i think i can't put that link here its not allowed so if I you want i will post it.) and other person that helped his release is Alex Webster of Cannibal Corpse. Both of them are fathers to florida death metal. Serbian bands already put here have almost one or two references of notability, this article will grow with the band I assure you.Now if u really think the article should be torn down, please do so. I planed to refresh all Serbian extreme metal articles since almost all band entries here are outdated, bands broke up and nobody gives a damn on updating their entries. But these discussions are tiresome as editors u probably know how much.Gruesomedeath (talk) 01:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that the article should be deleted, and here are my reasons for it:

1) The band notability was based on the fact that it is one of the most popular Serbian bands (and Eastern European if I recall), which really is not the case. Maybe within the undeveloped death metal scene, but I doubt that either. If you want to prove the band's popularity, put in the article the reference to your statement of the countries where the band had played or the recordings are distributed, in order to present this strong fan base you were talking about.

2) The notability based on the major record label album release is still not enough. There was the case with the Serbian black metal band May Result which was, despite being formed in 1995, having four full length albums released both by Serbian and foreign label and international live appearances and tours, deleted due to the band's lack of notability.

3) For the Serbian metal bands in general, there are several notable which could not get their articles on Wikipedia because of not having official discography, despite being the pioneers of the genre.

4) Due to the nature of the articles I write on Wikipedia, mainly concerning the Serbian rock scene, this is just another example of the self promotion of a band made by the band themselves or promoted by the people closely related to the band. The article is then not used for the presentation of the works of a notable band, but as means of commercial promotion which, as this is NOT Amazon.com or e-Bay, should be restricted by the deletion of the article and all other articles written with similar intention.

I believe that half of the reasons prove to be more than enough for the deletion of the mentioned article. User Milosppf 15:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I dont have any time for this here as i mentioned before, in any case i have not written this article with a promotional intent, it was just the first in a series i planned to incorporate into serbian extreme metal scene. Unfortunately, the scene is undeveloped enough, and as it seems nobody plans to intervene on this. On user Milosppf comments of ""Eastern Europe etc" i think he intentionaly over-hyped the sentence.Gruesomedeath (talk) 15:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.