Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dale Groutage


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Sjakkalle (Check!)  15:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Dale Groutage

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Single-sourced WP:BLP of a person notable only as a non-winning candidate for political office. This is not a claim of notability that passes WP:NPOL in and of itself, but the depth of coverage needed to get him over WP:GNG is not shown. Further, over the past couple of years there's been a persistent IP campaign to add claims that he's the author of a fantasy novel series, without actually adding any reliable sources to verify that the writer and the political candidate are actually the same person, or even that the writer would get over WP:AUTHOR at all. So regardless of whether the writer and the political candidate are the same person or not, no encyclopedic notability is actually being shown here for either endeavour — writers aren't automatically entitled to Wikipedia articles just because they exist, either, but must also pass certain specific notability criteria and have sufficient reliable source coverage. Bearcat (talk) 18:22, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:04, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wyoming-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:05, 3 August 2017 (UTC)


 * For more than the past 100 years since the University of Wyoming opened its doors as an institution of higher education at least 100,000 students have enrolled in the College of Engineering. Only 51 of those students have had the distinct honor of being inducted into the University of Wyoming Engineering Hall of Fame.  In 1998, world-renown scientist, W. Edwards Deming was inducted into the Engineering Hall of Fame.  Six years later in 2004, Dr. Dale Groutage had the distinct honor of being inducted into the University of Wyoming Engineering Hall of Fame as it 26th member alongside Dr. Deming.  Dr. Groutage was inducted for his service to his country as a scientist who worked on the Navy's Missile and Submarine Silencing Programs, which helped win the battle with our advisory, the Soviet Union, during the Cold War.  He was honored as one of the Nation's Top Ten Engineers by the National Society of Professional Engineers in 2001 for his national achievements.  In 2006, Dale was the Democrat Party's Candidate the U.S. Senate from the State of Wyoming. Following retirement from his professional career as an Engineer and Scientist, Dr. Groutage had an opportunity to return to his first love, "The Arts," to fulfill his life-long dream of writing Young Adult novels.  Dale is the author of The Kopaz Series, which is sold around the world, including Europe, Russia, China, Australia, and Japan to name a few countries.  Major retailers include: Amazon, Barns and Noble, Walmart and many more.  Dale Groutage the Author is the same Dale Groutage who was honored as a Top-Ten Engineer in the United States Federal Government and the same Dale Groutage who was inducted into the University of Wyoming Engineering Hall of Fame for his national accomplishments.  Dale Groutage's Wikipedia Page should not be deleted.  As the son of a coalminer born into poverty, his page is an inspiration to those who are searching for hope and can see that dreams can come true if you reach for a higher plane of existence.  For a person or persons to put the argument forward to delete Dale Groutage's Wikipedia page—based on the singular fact that he/she never mentions Dale's national accomplishments and bases the argument solely on the untrue statement that Dale Groutage the author is not the same person who was Wyoming's Democrat Party Candidate for U. S. Senate—is disingenuous.  The person or persons rational for deleting Dale Groutage's Wikipedia bio-page does not meet any of the Wikipedia guidelines and/or requirements for deleting a Wikipedia bio-page/article.
 * — TheKopaz (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Notability on Wikipedia is a matter of reliable source coverage, not of mere existence. There is no notability claim that any person can make — not "university professor", not "wrote books", not "inducted into a niche industry hall of fame", not "was a political canditate" — that entitles a person to have a Wikipedia article without having been the subject of enough reliable source coverage to pass WP:GNG. Our role on here is not to anoint or honour every single person who can simply be claimed as "an inspiration to others", because practically every single person who exists could try to claim that about themselves — our job is to keep articles about people who can be reliably sourced as satisfying our notability standards, and not to keep articles about people who can't. We're an encyclopedia, not a free public relations platform for every single person who ever did anything at all. And it's also not "disingenuous" to question the matter of whether the senate candidate and the writer are the same person or not — no sources have ever been provided at all to demonstrate the claim, which means it's not properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 17:27, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

It’s sad when the person posting on this Wikipedia discussion of Dale Groutage insults the people from the great state of Wyoming by slamming not only the University of Wyoming, but also those students who have attended the university for higher education, when the person states that the University of Wyoming Engineering Hall of Fame is nothing more than a “niche industry hall of fame.” I guess W. Edwards Deming, who was inducted into the University of Wyoming Engineering Hall of Fame, is now in the so-called “niche industry hall of fame,” as claimed by the person posting on this Wikipedia discussion on Dale Groutage. One has to ask if the person posting this discussion attained the position of Top-Ten Engineer in our nation’s federal government by the National Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE)? Dr. Groutage can claim that honor as so bestowed by the NSPE in 2001 — Top Ten Engineers. Does this person have patents (see for example US6522996) alongside his or her name for technical developments required to help our nation win the Cold War against the Soviet Union? Dr. Groutage can claim that honor as he has six patents (U.S. Patent Nos. 4,108,400; 4,324,378; 4,453,425; 4,842,218; 4,493,136, & 6,522,996) all of which were part of the Navy’s missile guidance and submarine silencing efforts to fight our advisory, the Soviet Union, during the Cold War. Has the person posting on this Wikipedia discussion of Dale Groutage worked with NASA scientists to develop a new technology for identification and classification of aeroelastic and aeroservoelastic dynamics used to design the next generation NASA airframes? Dr. Dale Groutage can claim that honor, see NASA Report Document ID 20010043991, Nonstationary Dynamics Data Analysis with Wavelet-SVD Filtering by Marty Brenner and Dale Groutage. When the person posting on this Wikipedia discussion stoops to the low of calling the University of Wyoming Engineering Hall of Fame a “niche industry hall of fame,” one has to ask if the person posting on this Wikipedia discussion of Dale Groutage is a politician, as his/her rhetoric sounds like a “Tweet Storm” coming from the White House.The Kopaz (talk) 06:41, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

With regard to the person’s claim that Dale Groutage the author, that Dale Groutage the Scientist and that Dale Groutage the senate candidate is not the same person, which is disingenuous, can be verified as false with a simple search. A snap search on Amazon, or Google for that matter, will verify that Dale Groutage the author, that Dale Groutage the Navy Scientist and Dale Groutage the senate candidate is indeed the same person.The Kopaz (talk) 16:49, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Again: notability for Wikipedia purposes is a question of showing enough reliable source coverage in media to clear WP:GNG — even the President of the entire United States wouldn't get to have a Wikipedia article if for some weird reason he wasn't the subject of any media coverage. Nothing that can be claimed about Groutage entitles him to keep an article if reliable source coverage in media cannot be shown to get him over GNG — if his notability claim has to depend on primary sources to be "referenced" at all, then it does not pass our standards whether you like the fact or not. Induction into a hall of fame does not confer notability if you have to rely on that hall of fame's own self-published website about itself to source the fact — it only counts as a notability claim to the extent that media cover the awarding of that distinction as news. Writing books does not confer notability if you have to rely on Amazon.com as evidence that the books exist — that only counts as a notability claim to the extent that media have written about the books. "Working with NASA scientists" does not count as a notability claim if you have to depend on NASA's own self-published reports to prove the claim — it only counts as notability to the extent that media have written about that work. "Holding patents" does not count as a notability claim if you have to depend on a routine patents database to source the claim — it counts as a notability claim only to the extent that media have written content about him and his inventions.
 * No matter what notability claim you make, it still works the same way no matter what: it counts as notability if he got media coverage for it, and not if you have to depend on primary sources to support the claim. Nothing that can be claimed about any person ever counts as a valid notability claim until it's referenced to reliable source coverage in media — so show some reliable source coverage in media, or drop the stick and walk away. Bearcat (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I assume that being on the front page — Headline “He Made Submarines Quiet” — of the Casper Star Tribune, Wyoming’s state-wide paper, counts as media coverage. And I also assume that the nearly 1000 episodes of media coverage of Dale Groutage — including TV, Radio and News Papers during the 2006 national senate-race election — count as media coverage — see [1],, [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] & [7] for example. Or, does person posting on this Wikipedia discussion of Dale Groutage take the position that if you lose the election, then nothing counts as exposure. If that is the case, Trump has exposure and Secretary Clinton has none! One thing is for sure and that is that Dale Groutage is known throughout the state of Wyoming. I assume that a headline such as “Dr. Dale Groutage Invents a Revolutionary New Matrix Decomposition Technique” does not happen and would not appear, for example, in The Casper Star Tribune — Wyoming's state-wide paper. But on the other hand, I assume that scientists around the world take note of the new Matrix Decomposition, including those at NASA, namely Marty Brenner, and he calls Dr. Groutage at the Navy and proposes a joint venture that ends up as a new tool for NASA air frame development. Not only did NASA take note, but text book authors and researchers from around the world from a wide range of scientific disciplines have taken note of the revolutionary contribution by Dr. Groutage, as the new Matrix Decomposition by Dr. Groutage — Transformed Singular Value Decomposition (TSVD) — replaces the conventional Singular Value Decomposition (SVD) — see [A], [B], [C], [D] & [E] for example. Of note is that this new matrix decomposition by Dr. Groutage is used throughout the world, see for example [use in Japan] and [also in China].

Only a small number of media examples have been shown here. There are literally thousands of media coverage stories of Dale Groutage the Wyoming Senate Candidate for the 2006 election and for Dr. Dale Groutage the inventor of the New Matrix Decomposition — Transformed Singular Value Decomposition (TSVD). A google search on either produces countless medial articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Kopaz (talk • contribs) 21:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC) The Kopaz (talk) 21:33, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Hillary Clinton is not a valid comparison — she may not have won the presidency, but she has held the offices of First Lady, Senator for New York and Secretary of State, and thus already had an article on those grounds years before even the first time she tried to run for president. Regardless of her failure in one election, she has held other notable offices in the past and thus passes WP:NPOL — the rule is not that a person has to be a current officeholder to qualify for an article on WP:NPOL grounds, but merely that they have to have held a notable office at some point in their lives. And that's why campaign coverage doesn't assist in establishing Groutage's notability: it doesn't establish that he held a notable political office, but merely that he ran for one and lost.
 * And incidentally, another of our rules is that you're not allowed to WP:BLUDGEON a discussion to death by repeatedly posting long walls of text in reply to every single thing anybody says. Make your points succinctly, once, or drop the stick and walk away. Bearcat (talk) 23:27, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 02:19, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

You say, “show some reliable source coverage in media.” When reliable media coverage of Dale Groutage “Front Page Coverage of the Casper Star Tribune” is presented, along with many other reliable media sources, you change the subject and say, “the rule is not that a person has to be a current officeholder to qualify for an article on WP:NPOL grounds, but merely that they have to have held a notable office at some point in their lives.” For the record, Dale Groutage held a public office, Fremont County State of Wyoming, public office for 10 years as the Secretary/Treasure and then Vice Chairman of the Fremont County Solid Waste Disposal District (FCSWDD). Dale was in charge of FCSWDD’s 7.5 million dollar yearly budget. Now to the succinct point. If what you say is fact, you contradict yourself. That is, Jon Ossoff has never held public office, he lost his bid for the Alabama 6th district seat in Congress and has a Wikipedia Page. What is it with people from Wyoming that you have a problem? You make offensive remarks about the University of Wyoming Engineering Hall of Fame by calling it a “niche industry hall of fame” and then you set a double standard for people running for public office who did not win their race — Dale Groutage from Wyoming is not granted a Wikipedia Page but Jon Ossoff from Alabama is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Kopaz (talk • contribs) 02:34, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
 * To count towards NPOL, public office has to be held at the state or federal levels, not treasurer of a county waste disposal committee. And incidentally, I nominated Ossoff for deletion when that article was first created — consensus kept it not because he was a candidate in and of itself, but because somebody was able to properly source evidence that he had a credible preexisting notability for reasons independent of being a candidate. So, again, not equivalent to this.
 * And the reason campaign coverage doesn't get a person over WP:GNG by itself is that campaign coverage always exists for every candidate in every election — but Wikipedia does not, and simply cannot, accept every candidate in every election as an article topic, and the campaign coverage just makes the person a WP:BLP1E, not a topic people are still going to need to read about in ten, 50 or 100 years from now. Bearcat (talk) 03:42, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

If you struck out on getting Jon Ossoff’s Wikipedia Page deleted because of his achievements, I ask, “What has Jon Ossoff achieved? Is he in a Hall of Fame? Is or was he selected as one of the Top-Ten people in the United States Government by a world-wide Professional Organization for his accomplishments? Did Jon Ossoff discover or invent something that is used by scientists world-wide in many disciplines? Has or did Jon Ossoff documented any unique and new technology or scientific or mathematical concept that is now in text books used in University class rooms? Is Jon Ossoff’s work referenced by his peers world-wide? Has Jon Ossoff been entrusted by the public to serve in public office anywhere in government (local or otherwise)? By the way and for the record, I was not on a committee. I was a public officer of Fremont County created by the State of Wyoming to oversee a 7.5 Million Dollars of annual budget to perform a function in a community. For all of the questions above, Dale Groutage can answer “Yes!” Furthermore, here is one-of-many text books used by Universities around the world that includes a full chapter on Groutage's contibutions: Applications in Time-Frequency Signal Processing. So, if Ossoff is allowed to hold a Wikipedia Page for achievements, please point them out and show they are equivalent to Groutage’s national and world-wide recognized achievements, including giving the United States the Biggest Stick it has to defend our freedom — Super Quiet Samarines! I hope Wikipedia does not hold a double standard, especially for people from Wyoming. The Kopaz (talk) 04:21, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
 * What he's achieved is that he got media coverage for stuff besides just the fact of being a candidate in and of itself. Again, our notability criteria consist of exactly two things: got media coverage, in a context that counts as a notability claim according to our notability standards. We do not accept mere candidacy as a notability claim in and of itself — and whatever other notability claim a person may have, we do not exempt them from having to have received media coverage for that. If you want to get into Wikipedia because of the books, you need to show media coverage about the books and not just the Amazon sales pages of the books. If you want to get into Wikipedia because of being inducted into a state-level science hall of fame, you need to show media coverage about that distinction and not just the primary source web page of the institution. If you want to get into Wikipedia because inventions, you need to show media coverage about the inventions and not just a primary source database of every patent that everybody's ever filed on anything. And if you want to get into Wikipedia because political candidacy, well, that's just not going to happen, because it doesn't count as a notability claim in and of itself — and neither does it matter a whit whether the "Fremont County Solid Waste Disposal District" was a committee or not: the lowest level of political office that guarantees a person an article on here is the state legislature, and the "Fremont County Solid Waste Disposal District" is not the state legislature.
 * And for the record, you started out this discussion pretending to be a different person who was referring to Dale Groutage in the third person, but in this comment you suddenly (and perhaps accidentally) switched to the first person — so you need to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's conflict of interest rules. Bearcat (talk) 04:47, 11 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Fails BIO and GNG. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:11, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete Not notable, not enough references. Neptune&#39;s Trident (talk) 15:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails WP:BIO. I find a few mentions but nothing that comes close to significant coverage in reliable sources. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:28, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Bearcat, I want to end this, hopefully, on a positive note. I know I have been, to say the least, robust, in my comments, but I will say that is because of a passion of mine. I will say a little more about that passion, but first I want to give a little background. I was born into extreme poverty, the son of a coal miner. As we had no TV or other entertainment, my mom and I read books. Together, in the early 50s, we read most of Thomas B. Costains’ books. It was my first love, the arts, and I wanted to be an author. But my mom — bless her heart — knew that I needed much more than to follow my dream of being an author. My mom wanted me to escape the clutches of a southwestern Wyoming coal camp and the all too tragic environment that could have been my future. She encouraged me to pursue the sciences — thank god. It paid off and I had a long successful career. So let me tell you of my passion, which is best told by an example. In 1955 pilot Tex Johnston barrel rolled a Boeing 707 over Lake Washington. He got the publicity. The unsung heroes were the team of engineers that made that feat possible. Today they are lost in history. It is Tex Johnston who is the hero. This story is played out over and over. The safe bridges, the safe skyscrapers, the war machines that safeguard our freedom and the list go on because of heroes in back rooms quietly and without fanfare and without media coverage doing their job because they love what they do. It has been my dream to bring them out of the back rooms and to the forefront. But you know my age, so this will be left to the next generation. If you ever have a change to come to Lander, Wyoming, give me a call. We’ll have lunch or coffee and perhaps have time to share our stories. Good luck in wherever your journey of life takes you. Dale! — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Kopaz (talk • contribs) 22:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC) — The Kopaz (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete. Of local interest only despite the wall of text. Xxanthippe (talk) 10:15, 15 August 2017 (UTC).
 * Delete. Not notable for stand alone article; Wikipedia is not a newspaper and this is only a local interest, with no significant coverage shown. Kierzek (talk) 13:46, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete fails NPOL and GNG. L3X1 (distænt write)   )evidence(  22:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect to United States Senate election in Wyoming, 2006. All the claims made surely would mean he got coverage in newspapers, right? So I checked newspapers.com. However, there is no coverage about a "Dale Groutage" before 2006, not about winning the Federal Engineer of the Year Award, being inducted in any Hall of Fame or working for the US government. Still, he ran for the Senate as a major party candidate, so he is a likely search term for said election, so redirecting makes sense. Regards  So Why  11:56, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.