Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Darren LaCroix (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  08:36, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Darren LaCroix
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Obvious autobiography / PR job, entirely written by WP:SPAs. Sources are primarily affiliated with his club, Toastmasters International, are self-authored, or are press releases. Guy (Help!) 18:25, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. I see nothing that has changed since I first nominated this for deletion.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  00:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Nevada-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete Article is too promotional in tone and style.TH1980 (talk) 02:43, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep WP:DELETIONISNOTCLEANUP.  More importantly, in addition to stories about LaCroix in WP:RS already page (yes, most sources are poor and should be removed,) INDEPTH includes feature stories about him not yet on the page: REGIONAL COVERAGE: Telegram & Gazette, 12 Jan. 1997 Serious Money in Laughter; Boston Globe, FINDING A WAY WITH WORDS:  [Boston, Mass]23 Dec 2001 (regional, metro west edition;)  Telegram & Gazette (regional coverage, he lived Auburn, MA) 10 May 1998 Comic wrings laughter from serious illness - and more similar form region.  NATIONAL and NON-LOCAL COVERAGE: Telegraph Herald, 5 Feb. 2015, Remember the power of the pause; The Pantagraph 1 April 2008 Where laughing matters; and Chicago Tribune, 20 March 2002 you can be a successful flop.  Clearly he was a bit of a thing around the turn of the century.  There was a spate or articles like the one in the Los Angeles Times that is already on the page, generated by the fact that  he won a speaking contest in 2001.  And the discussion 3 years ago was a firm keep.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:44, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Article could be updated using this. It's not a BLP:1E because his career got coverage for years.  And he gets discussed in books about humor and public speaking.  Because: ''One of the greatest openings in Toastmasters World Championship history involved a pratfall of epic proportions. In his 2001 winning contest speech, Darren LaCroix walked out onto the stage in front of 2,000 people in the audience..." started to speak, and literally fell flat on his face.  .  It conferred a kind of enduring notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:04, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep as multiple reliable sources significant coverage have been identified above so passes WP:GNG Atlantic306 (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * No, the sources lack independence. That remains the case. Unsurprisingly, he is a gifted self-publicist, but his own promotion seems to be the only trigger for any coverage at all. Guy (Help!) 11:05, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 * A WP:SURMOUNTABLE problem, all that needs to be done is to remove the PRIMARY and add WP:RS, several of which are listed above.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:02, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That leaves no sources, though. And you just added more non-independent ones. Guy (Help!) 15:28, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 19:23, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete- deletion is not cleanup, but we do delete articles for being purely promotional, which this is. The citations are from fluff pieces where he talks about how effective his methods are. I'm not seeing any meaning sourcing. Did I mention almost all the sources are from Toastmasters International? Apparently meaningful articles are not about him as an individual. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia  ᐐT₳LKᐬ  01:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 * In fact, there are multiple reported stories in large market daily newspapers that give the details of his life and career.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:58, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * WP:HEYMANN Despite the fact that WP:DELETIONISNOTCLEANUP I have expanded and RELIABLY sourced the details oh this man's life and career.  I removed the PRIMARY sourcing to which editors above, rightly, objected.  Note that I used Proquest, which is paywalled, and that one Boston Globe story has duplicate citations: one to the Globe website and the other to Proquest, both are paywalled. Lacroix garnered drew attention nationwide attention in the U.S. and Canada) in 2001 - 02 after he won the annual Toastmasters International contest.  But note that coverage of his career as a public speaking instruction began in 1998 and has continued.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:58, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, current refs are:
 * Kooker, Naomi R. (December 23, 2001). "TOASTMASTERS BAR NONE AT NORFOLK FACILITY, INMATES LEARN NEW WAYS TO MAKE THEIR POINTS". Boston Globe. Boston, Mass. - Press release churnalism
 * Basheda, Lori (26 August 2001). "Stand and deliver Speaking Toastmasters select their world champion, whose theme is failure's value. Series". Orange County Register. Retrieved 11 June 2018. - Press release churnalism
 * Kooker, Nomi (23 December 2001). "TOASTMASTERS BAR NONE AT NORFOLK FACILITY, INMATES LEARN NEW WAYS TO MAKE THEIR POINTS". Boston Globe. Retrieved 11 June 2018.- duplicate of 1
 * Gibes, Al (September 26, 2010). "Laugh and learn: Speaker says to humorize is to humanize". Las Vegas Review Journal. - will check when archive.org is working for me, this is not online now.
 * Silver, Kate (September 30, 2010). "Las Vegas humor coach insists anyone can be funny—even you". Vegas Seven. - looks like PR
 * Sean, McCarthy (27 February 2005). "Word to the stars: Gab's no gift, so be prepared". Boston Herald. Retrieved 11 June 2018. - Can't find on Boston Herald website, please help with a direct link
 * Courtemanche, Dolores (8 May 1998). "Comic wrings laughter from serious illness". Telegram & Gazette. Retrieved 11 June 2018. - appears to be churnalism
 * Holliday, Bob (1 April 2008). "Where laughing matters". The Pantagraph. Retrieved 11 June 2018. - non-RS
 * LaCroix, Darren. "Get More Laughs in every presentation for the rest of your life". Archived from the original on 2010-11-15. - non-RS
 * Murphy, Dave (20 March 2002). "Sometimes you can be a successful flop". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 11 June 2018. - Press release churnalism
 * Anton, Mike (August 26, 2001). "The Region; Victor in 'Olympics of Oratory' Falls Flat, but His Speech Doesn't; Communication: A pratfall helps salesman underline his message". Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif. - Can't see it on LA Times, please help with a non-paywall link.
 * "2009 Our Featured Speakers". AATH Annual Conference. Archived from the original on 2010-09-17. - not independent
 * I think we all agree that obvious press releases and PR bios should not be included, yes? As to WP:HEY, not even close, sorry. In fact if it was anybody else doing it I would suspect resume padding. Guy (Help!) 15:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The sources now on the page are signed, reported stories in reputable newspapers. His speaking championship "flop" is discussed in a number of books.  (And, yes, I frequently cleanup, revise, and source articles that I find at AfD.  This page was obvious PROMO, but with the Promo removed, it is the life of a person who obtained notability as a public speaker.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Snow Keep 2001 World Champion of Public Speaking... come on, clearly passes WP:GNG. Forbes, Boston Globe, Training Journal... Any issues with the content are editing issues and not deletion issues.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:21, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * What is this "World Championship of Public Speaking"? What makes it notable? I don't see an article on it. Is it recognized by any other organizations as a legitimate competition, or is it simply a Toastmasters publicity stunt? The National Dishwashers' Manufacturing Council could annually award a "World's Best Dishwasher Stacker" trophy to somebody, but that wouldn't confer notability on the winner.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  22:46, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course, if your dishwasher stacker, was given as much WP:SIGCOV in as many reliable, independent books and newspapers over the course decades as LaCroix, his  BPL would pass WP:GNG.  This also applies to the  World Champion of Public Speaking, although not every winner will be notable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - nn as a "keynote speaker, author, comedian [or] teacher". The 2001 Champion of Public Speaking is not an honour that's sigificant and well known, and there's nothing better. Wikipedia is not a free means of advertising, which this page is. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:54, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - World Championship of Public Speaking is a non-notable event, if you take that away then I fail to see why the individual is notable. Dan arndt (talk) 03:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It is, however, a notable event:


 * World Champion of Public Speaking. (I often start articles during an AfD, when it becomes clear that we have neglected a significant topic.) E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delte not notable for any accomplishment. This is not a notable topic, and we have not been neglecting it. If anything Wikipedia has way, way, way too many articles on people who are most notable for being public speakers, no where near a lack of such articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * With world championship coverage like this, it's hard to read that comment and take it in good faith. It looks more like a carefully crafted stab at WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than something related to research and data. If it's not notable, how come there are all these articles in the media on the topic?--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:45, 13 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.