Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DartMUD

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. -- AllyUnion (talk) 12:30, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

DartMUD
Non-notable online game. 26 players online when I checked. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 21:39, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete EggplantWizard 21:41, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Plenty of MUDs like that, and I'd wager it uses all the standard areas from Diku. A MUD with hundreds of players might be notable. Radiant! 22:14, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * It has all custom areas and skills, and a skill-based advancement system (as well as a numberless classless interface). Also note the tens of thousands of google hits on "Dartmud".  Pakaran 22:51, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Neither custom areas nor skills are unusual, and a numberless interface isn't uncommon either. Of those tens of thousands of google hits, only 266 are dissimilar enough from each other for Google to display. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 23:54, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Radiant makes a generalization of the mud without ever having played it. First off, it's not even Diku. It's LP. Also, it's not how many users, it's how the users interact. Some muds with hundreds of users you can't ever find because they're never interacting with anyone. Also, it uses no custom areas, and has been running since 1991. --Shadyman 01:34, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - notable, as I outline above Pakaran 22:51, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. -Sean Curtin 01:18, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete -- Hoary 05:00, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)
 * Keep, but with reservations. Article needs expansion. Megan1967 07:31, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep, but with reservations of expansion. see comments above. --Shadyman 01:34, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * User's sixth edit. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 02:17, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * How is a personal attack relevant to this discussion? *7th edit*--Shadyman 02:42, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - Dartmud is small because it is a mud among muds, where only the quick-thinking and adaptable survive. I'd take a small challenging mud - next to one of those giants with 1500 newbs who gripe constantly to the GM's - any day, as would anyone looking for a game worth playing for years without tiring. If you doubt, play for a week or two. And yes, the current description is severely lacking. Kiev
 * User's first edit. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 02:17, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep It has changed my life. WARNING its will addict you like no other *strayne*
 * Strayne's first edit. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 02:50, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep: I've been active on muds for several years and have experience a lot of them.  I have not seen another MUD that resembles Dartmud in all that time.  Before you knock it, log in and give it a try. While it is an ADVANCED mud, it is easy to become involved and your character integrated into the multi-facted social system. --Donovan 02:52, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * User's first edit. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 02:50, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: the above further cement my position that this is primarily an advertisement, not an encyclopedia article. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 02:54, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - I have played Dartmud for over 4-years. I have been banned repeatedly and am still attracted to the originalities, player interaction and deep skill base, that I find myself, despite being banned, searching for alternative methods to playing Dartmud.  However, I have also played other muds, like, Achaea, Age of Chaos, and Ancient Anguish.  It should be noted that, in comparison, none of these muds come close to the kind of quality that Dartmud possesses.  Thank you.
 * 24.17.141.162's first edit. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 06:32, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - I'm a longtime player of DM, but I don't say "keep" for that reason, nor for DM's general wonderfulness. I vote to keep it because DartMUD happens to be one of the primary sources of inspiration for Ultima Online (which in turn inspired many other MMORPGs), something I notice isn't mentioned in the entry. Also, the first two posters who left comments could do well to remember that "notable" and "popular" are two different things entirely. As has been previously noted, the second person to comment made a generalization which was wrong in every aspect. I do agree that the article needs expansion.
 * 65.31.212.32's first edit. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 06:52, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - But only if the description is changed. Dartmud is notable, as a small mud that has lasted longer than most.  It's strong emphesis on roleplay creates an absorbing environment that one can easly be lost in for hours.  It was innovative at the time of it's change over from level/xp to skill system, however in today's gaming society it is nothing new or innovative. It can be fun, it can be addictive, but that doesn't make it notable. 09:32, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * 70.33.151.130's first edit. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 06:52, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Raph Koster, a creator for Ultima Online, once wrote: "DartMUD was influential on me, certainly--ought to have been for everyone. I think the key problem they had was that their system required a critical mass of players of diverse types in order to function, and they never really achieved that mass." Not a huge playerbase, yes. Influential? Yes. (It seems the original article has vanished. My source was an old post in our forums, which you can find at www.surfon.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=351.) Further, Björn Morén wrote: "One of the chief inspirations for simulationist design in the hobbyist community was the game DartMUD." (a live link http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/01/the_value_of_re.html). I apologize if my previous post came off as an advertisement. Kiev
 * Keep Though the original article could use some changes. I am a long time player of Dartmud - and it is truly unique in many ways. One way is the way its political system works. Dartmud has the only completely unrestricted PK system I have seen which actually works. Most characters who have been around a few months have the ability to kill and hide most other characters - but the fact that a pk'er who makes one mistep will loose his own character tends to keep pk under control. It is true that most of the votes for keeping the page here are probably from Dartmud players - but I see no problem with the page existing on Wikipedia.
 * Keep Each request for delete listed stems from ignorance on the part of the deleter. To briefly adress the points, the userlist numbers are not reliable -- this is a feature which allows users to hide their on/offline status. This is not a Diku. Although numberless interfaces are not at all uncommon, DartMUD pioneered the concept in '91. All areas are original, there are no stock areas anywhere in the Mud. Dartmud originated the 'craft' system. In all probability the move to delete was started by one or more players recently banned for cheating (apropos any number of recent threads at the dartmud forum http://www.surfon.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/forums.cgi?forum=2 where the banned players have been causing any amount of trouble). With regards to the limited returns from a Google search, this is a result of an in-game policy which dissallows dissemination of information which can be obtained in-character through other means. DartMUD has a long history, has influenced the development of nearly every mud currently existing, and all of the commercial MMOGs currently running from Everquest to WoW. The DartMUD article certainly needs to be expanded such that it reflects the importance of DartMUD and its shaping of online gaming, but it is certainly noteworthy in any discussion of persistent online games.

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.