Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Firman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:59, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

David Firman

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Fails to meet WP:BIO or WP:CREATIVE. I'm unable to find independent sourcing for any of the content. SmartSE (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This source is now in the article and does provide the kind of coverage we need, but we still need more than just this to demonstrate notability and I am not able to find anything. SmartSE (talk) 22:04, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. SmartSE (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. SmartSE (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep the article needs to be reworked. The subject is notable. Some non-trivial coverage here, and score work in Hollywood productions. An article should be developed. Tonereport (☎) (My Work) 19:05, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * On what basis have you concluded The subject is notable? The coverage you link to is already mentioned in the nomination, but we require multiple sources like that, not just one. IMDB is a user-generated source so not suitable for determining notability. I have searched for more sources containing The Dark Crystal (1982), The Green Butchers (2003) and Allegro (2005) which are mentioned at IMDB but have not found anything suitable. SmartSE (talk) 12:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 10:49, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Draft move to draft as it does have potential with one good source but more are needed for mainspace. Having completed a long search I couldn't find any similarly good coverage, only passing mentions in reviews in reliable sources such as The Guardian and The Independent, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 *  Delete Draft for now - worthy individual who looks likely to become notable at some future point. However, the coverage is not there yet to meet WP:BIO nor achievements to meet WP:NCREATIVE. Whilst I am sympathetic to a Draftify, for that to be worthwhile we need a willing volunteer to develop the page. The article is not inspiring, being little more than a laundry list of the sort of routine jobs that we would expect of someone in his business. I would be prepared to userfy if someone, who is prepared to take the job on, has found more sources. Just Chilling (talk) 20:07, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep a notable conductor with reviews of a series of West End musicals where he conducted the orchestra when the musical opened in the West End visible in news archive search going back to the 90s. He has led a great many orchestras in special performances, and I can see so many articles about his conduction the  Royal Philharmonic Orchestra that I presume he has some sort of ongoing contract with that orchestra.  I do see the argument for moving it to draft, But I see no valid argument for deletion - there  are just too many reviews of his work in the British and German and Canadian press.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * there are just too many reviews of his work in the British and German and Canadian press This and this are presumably what you are referring to, but those are extremely brief mentions and to me, do not demonstrate either BIO or CREATIVE are met. Many mentions do not add up to notability. SmartSE (talk) 00:03, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Here are a few of the reviews visible in a news archive search:

Billington, Michael. The Guardian; London (UK) [London (UK)]08 Aug 2007: 34. " In this concert celebration of the composer-lyricist (Sondheim), devised by David Firman... This week he is on the road with Mickey Mouse, recreating a live musical experience of Disney's Fantasia that was a triumph at London's Royal Albert Hall in modern arenas in Manchester, Brimingham and kicking off on Friday at Glasgow's new SSE Hydro. The show has been produced by Jonathan Heely, who has worked with Disney since 1981 when he helped recreate the score for the original classical animated film for a digital recording, a process he has continued through much of the classic Disney canon. The Fantasia show screens scenes from the 1940 Fantasia and its millennial revisitation, Fantasia 2000, with the music played live by the Royal Philharmonic Concert Orchestra. Its a process that demands much of Firman, but he is man who is absolutely across all the technology that keeping a big band synchronised with moving images requires. Firman points out that Walt Disney did not ask Leopold Stokowski to perform the same trick. When Fantasia was made, the music was recorded first and the animators made Mickey move to the beat. "There are times when I just look at the picture, and there is a click track from time to time, but more important are the 'punches' and 'streamers' that I can see on my screen, bursts of light and vertical lines that help me guage when a certain action or 'sync point' is going to arrive." Firman illustrates what he means vocally over the phone, with the opening bars of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. It is perfectly clear to me at the time, but the English language lacks the vocabulary to pass that intelligence on, so you will just have to take my word for it. Firman's form in this discipline is bang up to date. He works a lot in Denmark, where he is Principal Guest Conductor with the Danish Radio Sinfonietta, and has performed the score of Pirates of the Caribbean there and in London with a screening of the film, a process he is about to repeat with the second film in the series, which has even better music, he says. "And gosh, isn't Keira Knightley gorgeous in that one?" he adds, suggesting that the images are not entirely ignored. "There's a lot more straightforward click track with that, because it is more modern music. Really with classical repertoire, it is counter-intuitive to stick so slavishly to the beat. You want to go faster or slower - tempi are so inate. But I think I enjoy it because of my history as a session player: I understand what the music is supposed to do." The Fantasia live show restores some music, like Debussy's Claire de Lune, that failed to make the final cut of the film, and combines it with an edited version of the full film, which Stokowski, the celebrity conductor of his day, saw very much as an "art" project, working closely with the stories the animators illustrated. Firman thinks that although there were already many serious composers at work in Hollywood, Fantasia helped give credibility to the music they were writing and introduced a new audience to the symphony orchestra. When the original film was released, Disney created a fancy new sound system for its screening, a sort of percursor of Dolby surround that Pirates of the Caribbean was written to make the most of, adding all those electronic effects and samples." Working on such proven hits is a very different experience than working in the West End, says Firman, who was off to see Andrew Lloyd Webber's new Profumo musical, Stephen Ward, on the day we spoke. "In musical theatre you can have no idea what will be a success or a failure. It is impossible to predict what will work. That is a story about a noble man with a great flaw and time of political revolution that threw up interesting characters. But do people still remember it?" By contrast, the successful Pirates is "very effective and tuneful, but not a work of genius". "It is a swashbuckling silly movie that leaves people time to take in the performance of the band too. Because people like seeing people doing live things." As well as looking at Keira Knightley - and Mickey Mouse. Caption: ON THE ROAD: Conductor David Firman is taking his live version of Disney's Fantasia to a wider audience."
 * Review: Theatre: Good Thing Going Cadogan Hall, London 4/5
 * THEATRE: Enter the Guardsman With David Benedict. The Independent; London (UK) [London (UK)]23 Aug 1997: 20. "credit for the lush, sweeping sound, however, goes to the conductor and expert orchestrator David Firman. "
 * MUSIC REVIEWS Mahir, Ali. Weekend Australian; Canberra, A.C.T. [Canberra, A.C.T]18 Apr 2009: 22."David Firman's elegant soft jazz arrangement of this Stephen Foster classic makes it a highlight, "
 * Mickey Mouse job on a musical is no mean feat Bruce, Keith. The Herald; Glasgow (UK) [Glasgow (UK)]24 Dec 2013: 15. " Conductor David Firman has the sort of CV that brings him into contact with people that most conductors do not reach. The original West End productions of Jesus Christ Superstar, Evita, Cats and Chicago have all fallen under his baton. As a session keyboard player he has served Hollywood composers John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, and Marvin Hamlisch. He gets calls to MD for Victoria Wood, Bryn Terfel, Micahel Ball and Lesley Garrett.
 * This Hansel And Gretel is simply wicked!: Classical Mellor, David. Mail on Sunday; London (UK) [London (UK)]21 Dec 2008: 18. "Special appreciation must go to conductor David Firman, whose pacing is impeccable. "
 * That is usst a sampling of what exists. And There are also pre-reviews, like this"
 * WATCH: Kaiser Chiefs' Ricky Wilson scrubs up his acting skills Thistlethwaite, Felicity. Express (Online); London (UK) [London (UK)]10 June 2015. "The Royal Philharmonic Concert Orchestra will be unmissable at Sounds in the Grounds. Conducted by impeccable music sculptor and West End legend David Firman, teamed with the idyllic historical setting, there will be no better location to experience this iconic performance."E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:47, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Noting that passing WP:CREATIVE does not require coverage of his life, but of his work as a conductor, composer, and orchestrator with a role in creating notable films, West End musicals, and symphonic performances. We have pages on many authors and composers about whose lives little is known, even anonymous ones. Our guidelines judge CREATIVE types by the coverage garnered by the work, not the man.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:22, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Additonal coverage in gBooks search on "David Firman" + music.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but again there only seems to be significant coverage in one source (The Herald) which is already included in the article and linked in the nomination. Obviously CREATIVE doesn't require biographical information to exist, but we do need substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources, which I still think is lacking. Nothing on google books seems to provide this either. SmartSE (talk) 17:38, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The books substantiate his role as a significant member of several teams (producer, director, writer, orchestrator, etc.) that created West End musicals, Films and other productions. As do the listings in IMDb, not itself a good source, but googling the credits found there leads to reliable sources for his creative work on notable films and TV.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 21:46, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep, meets WP:CREATIVE as having created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work that have been reviewed, lists a sample of that work above. Coolabahapple (talk) 01:39, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep, E.M.Gregory has found a wide range of reviews in reliable sources from England, Scotland and Australia, some of which have been added to the article as quotes and references, and the others could be. He clearly meets WP:CREATIVE #3. There are probably also sources in Danish, given that he conducted the Danish Sinfonietta over 24 years. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:02, 9 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.