Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Hadrava


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Arguments based on WP:NFOOTY aren't reckoning with the spirit of WP:ATHLETE, particularly paragraph two: "If the article does meet the criteria set forth below, then it is likely that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Such sources were not brought forth to rebut the argument that the article fails the WP:GNG. Mackensen (talk) 00:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

David Hadrava

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Courtesy deletion request on behalf of the subject (via OTRS). A single appearance as a substitute in a Football league Trophy game and some pre-season friendlies barely seems to fulfil WP:NFOOTY if at all. Nthep (talk) 17:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC) Nthep (talk) 17:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  20:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  20:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  20:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - meets WikiProject Football/Notability point 2. Jasonakagary88 21:42, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:06, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - one substitute appearances a number years ago (to technically meet WP:NFOOTBALL) is not enough when he comprehensively fails WP:GNG. Some WP:COMMONSENSE is needed here, and plenty of AFD precedent exists to say that barely passing NFOOTBALL is not enough when you fail GNG, see Articles for deletion/Oscar Otazu, Articles for deletion/Vyacheslav Seletskiy, Articles for deletion/Aleksandr Salimov, Articles for deletion/Andrei Semenchuk, Articles for deletion/Artyom Dubovsky, Articles for deletion/Cosmos Munegabe, Articles for deletion/Marios Antoniades, Articles for deletion/Scott Sinclair (footballer born 1991), Articles for deletion/Fredrik Hesselberg-Meyer (2nd nomination), Articles for deletion/Matheus Eccard, Articles for deletion/Roland Szabó (2nd nomination), Articles for deletion/Metodija Stepanovski, Articles for deletion/Linas Klimavičius, Articles for deletion/Takumi Ogawa, Articles for deletion/Nicky Fish (2nd nomination) and Articles for deletion/Andrei Nițu, amongst others. GiantSnowman 19:12, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - Given how comprehensively this article fails WP:GNG, this pretty clearly falls under the section in the leded of WP:NSPORT which says Please note that the failure to meet these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, the meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - Player passes WP:NFOOTY as has played in a fully professional league, but per above, only once. No indication of any other achievements that have garnered sufficient, significant coverage to satisfy WP:GNG. Fenix down (talk) 16:07, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete – While technically meeting WP:NFOOTY, the expectation that the player would build upon that notability in the ensuing 13 years has not been met. This player clearly fails WP:GNG. — Jkudlick t c s 01:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - Meets the Special Notability Guideline for soccer players. We don't want to get into the game of parsing SNG standards for hundreds of borderline nominations — a subject passes or they do not. This one does, whether one deems him "important" or not. Carrite (talk) 12:08, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:NSPORT explicitly says that it is not a hard and fast rule, but a rule of thumb, and makes it clear that deviation from the rule of thumb is permitted in borderline cases. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * To be specific, WP:NSPORT states that "the meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept." As stated, these are rules of thumb which can be used to determine whether an individual is likely to meet WP:GNG. One appearance in a WP:FPL before returning to non-league play hardly meets GNG. — Jkudlick t c s 02:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Keep - As the nomination notes, the article meets WP:FOOTY. Nfitz (talk) 18:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - Passes WP:NFOOTY. IJA (talk) 15:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep WP:NFOOTY starts with "[a]ssociation football (soccer) figures are presumed notable if they meet the following..." Per WP:PRESUMPTION the editors that want deletion have the burden to "prove the demonstrated presumption to be false."  While I am 100% on board with an article being deleted even if it passes WP:NFOOTY or any other guideline, the burden is on the editors to show that the articles should be deleted.  All that is being shown is how the article just passes WP:NFOOTY and that other articles that have been deleted.  Note that while about a dozen or so deleted articles are shown I am sure at least an equal number of passing articles can be shown that just pass and are kept.  I think just listing other articles and citing that the article just passes WP:NFOOTY falls well short of proving the demonstrated presumption to be false as required. RonSigPi (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * KeepPer RonSigPi and passes WP:FOOTY.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails WP:GNG, as per previous consensus at AfD. JMHamo (talk) 02:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mr. Guye (talk) 02:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is the second AfD I've come across recently for an article about a marginally notable person who has requested deletion, and the second time there's been a bunch of "keep per WP:NWHATEVER" comments. There's no reason to trap low-profile non-public figures in this kind of hidebound wikibureaucracy. Barely meeting an already low standard by a technicality is more or less WP:ONEEVENT in any case. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:48, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * If the standard in the guideline is raised to say 10 games, then some editors will argue that those that play 10 games barely meet the standard and should have their articles deleted. It seems like in your opinion many of the WP:NSPORTS articles have too low of a standard.  My suggestion would be to work to change the guidelines.  If the community agrees with you, then the guideline can be changed and re-evaluation can occur.  However, the community has set this standard and we have to go with it.  This does not mean automatically keep, but it does mean presume notable unless shown otherwise.  Just because you don't like the guideline/think the standard is too low does not mean we should undermine what the entire community has deemed appropriate for presuming notability.  In short, work to change the guideline if you think it needs changed as opposed to trying to cause deletion of articles that meet the guideline and undermine the work of the whole community in creating that standard.RonSigPi (talk) 14:50, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete Fails WP:GNG. NFOOTY lets us down here because that guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sportsperson is likely to meet the general notability guideline, that it is likely that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. Plainly, it is not the case that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the general notability guideline for a stand-alone article and it's not going to be the case. Since Mr Hadrava does not reach the level of our general notability guideline, he is a relatively unknown figure and we should accede to his request for deletion. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:18, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What you said boils down to nothing but opinion. And that opinion conflicts with the guideline.  You say no sources exist, but provide no evidence that this is the case.  You said the the guideline is to help evaluate, but more specifically it creates a presumption.  Simply saying that sources don't exist does overcome the presumption that sources do exist.  Have you gone to libraries in Colchester and Reading to go through the actual physical newspapers of that era to evaluate the sources?  He played over 13 years ago and many potential sources from the Internet likely have been taken down.  The whole point of the guideline is that sources such as these in the library do exist without forcing editors to hunt them down.   If you want to overcome the presumption, then you can select to do so, but the burden is on you.  Overcoming that presumption, especially when talking about a player that last played over a decade ago, requires more than a Google search.RonSigPi (talk) 14:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Seriously?!? This player played just over half an hour once in a WP:FPL. The remaining derivative of his career was in very low level leagues. He has asked for his page to be deleted and to be honest, any sources in the local libraries are going to be local by definition and would not satisfy GNG. Furthermore clear consensus has been shown above that players with similar careers are generally considered non notable. Finally what is the logic in presuming sources exist when none have been found? That makes no sense and if employed here could be employed in any argument where the suggestion was the player was not notable. Fenix down (talk) 14:59, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment, leaning keep. It looks like GNG could be met with some effort. This one is pretty in depth and took only a few seconds to find.Cptnono (talk) 18:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please re read. Most of the article le is not even about the player in question. Secondly the element that is is just WP:ROUTINE reporting about his contract not being renewed. It is essentially composed of the normal empty "we wish him well" platitudes provided when anyone leaves a club. There is no depth to this whatsoever. At least half of this article is actually about Ruel Fox. Fenix down (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - doesn't appear that the article could ever satisfy the GNG and one single professional football appearance in an entire career just isn't enough to make this person notable. Jogurney (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete in cases of borderline notability we head the wishes of the subject and delete the article when such deletions are requested.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.