Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Müller (footballer born 1991)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:17, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

David Müller (footballer born 1991)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Plays in the third level of football in Germany. That may meet the bare minimun for notability, as the German 3rd_Liga is listed as fully professional at WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues. Yet I note it is the third level. One is not notable only for being a "professional something" ("professional baker", "professional cook") and third level national league is not notable, even if professional - note that the German Football Association official website highlights 1st and 2nd level (men), 1st level (women), Cup (men), Cup (women), and the League Cup (men)[extinct competition. That is, DFB itself seems to assume 3rd_Liga as not that much notable. And David Müller is not otherwise notable, in the WP sense. - Nabla (talk) 22:48, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Clarification:The above refers to the english version of DFB's website. The german version has 3.Liga, as it has just about every level. - Nabla (talk) 10:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep If you want to delete this article you will have to change notability guidelines first. This would cause the deletion of thousands of articles. Football League Two is the English fourth division. But their players are also notable. By the way I consider the German 3rd League is more prosfessional than Egyptian Premier League. Obviously the German 3rd League is fully professional. Important Sport magazines like Kicker (sports magazine) review the performance of every player of every game of the German 3rd League.  --Yoda1893 (talk) 12:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Additional Comment In this source German Football Association explains that the German 3rd League has higher revenues and more TV appearances than any other third soccer division. --Yoda1893 (talk) 13:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the point of 'strong' comments/keep/delete? Shouting makes any kind of stronger point?
 * The site used as reference also says :«And it is not an unbiased review either, since I'm writing from the perspective of a fan. If you don't like it, don't read it.» (main page) and «I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information on this site» (about). Actually it is a very good site, but is is just as it says: a unreliable fan site.
 * The Kikers site you pointed also covers amateur liga. Should we then write about every team and player there?
 * Should we write about every professional working for fully professional organizations as Wal Mart? Shell? Exxon? They are part of something way larger than the German 3rd level footbal.
 * - Nabla (talk) 15:32, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * On the website of Kicker (sports magazine) are not detailed match reports about matches of the German fourth division (Regionalliga). But kicker.de and other sports magazines review the performance of every single player of every single game of the German 3rd League. Even like the website of the German Football Association presents match reports for every match of the German 3rd League. By the way I used the word strong because David Müller obviously meets the notability guidelines and because this here is the wrong place for comparisons of fully professional athletes with employees of business enterprises. I consider that the salaries of the German 3rd league are higher as the salaries of the Portuguese second division and I also consider that the audience numbers are higher. This comparison makes more sense. --Yoda1893 (talk) 16:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Now I have checked it. The numbers speak for themselves. (second Portuguese divsion)  (German 3rd League) --Yoda1893 (talk) 16:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I might agree that that playing at the Portuguese Second division is even less of a hint for notability than playing at the German 3rd division. I would clearly vote delete on any player from it (if that would be the only reason). They are both not inherently notable. But I miss the point of the comparison... That there are other things even less notable does not make one thing notable. - Why compare paid worked at XXX with paid workers at YYY? One criterion for having this player is that he is a paid professional for a fully professional organization. I'm simply pointing by means of example that such argument, per se, is a extremely weak one: most of the adult world population is or was a paid professional for a professional organization. Yet most of the adult world population is not (WP-)notable. And I doubt you want to add wage as a major criterion. (It may hint, yes) I do accept the individual performance review as a good hint, better than I thought there would be (I regularly use DFB's site, but only the english version). But I still think he is not (WP-)notable. Oh!, thank you for discussing politely, it is often not possible in here. Tks. - Nabla (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The point is that players of the second Portuguese Division are (just like players of the German 3rd League or the English and Italian fourth division) notable according to the notability guidelines of the English (and also German) Wikipedia. There are thousands of articles about players of this leagues. If you want to change the notability guidelines this is surely not the right place. In my opinion a singer who was one time in his life on chart position 99 with his single is not notable. But the notability guidelines say that he is notable. --Yoda1893 (talk) 17:45, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  —Tom Morris (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Yoda1893 (talk) 13:55, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

*Delete (no sources) - If he has played in the German third league this article should be kept. But as there are currently no sources to confirm this I have to say delete. Adam4267 (talk) 17:38, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep The third level in Germany is a notable league, as has been demonstrated by Yoda's posts. Eldumpo (talk) 14:12, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. Mr Müller has played for a fully professional league, thus satisfying WP:NFOOTY. End. Kosm1fent Won't you talk to me? 14:41, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - he has played in a fully pro league, and therefore passes WP:NSPORT. Sir Sputnik (talk) 14:49, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - The article now has references which show he has played (and scored) in the league. This means he meets WP:NFOOTY. Adam4267 (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Just take a look at the external links:  --Yoda1893 (talk) 17:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - nominator admits that this player meets existing notability criteria; smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. GiantSnowman 18:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The guideline says that it will «*generally* be regarded as notable» (my emphasys). My point is that in this case - plays at 3rd level, and not notable otherwise - it does not fit in the general case. That is, the nomination is entirely within the guideline. Please, assume good faith. - Nabla (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Generally means here obviously that a player who did not play in a fully professional league can also be notable if there are other reasons for notability and that a player who played in a fully professional league is definitely ( = generally) notable. I do not assume bad faith. But in this way the guideline was ever interpreted. --Yoda1893 (talk) 21:05, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Generally means "more often than not", "mostly", etc. (see: "generaly" at wordnetweb). That is quite different from definitely. I am aware that there are other similar articles around, I said so to begin with. As I see it, they are also not notable. - Nabla (talk) 21:26, 11 September 2011 (UTC) PS: I am also aware that it has been interpreted in the sense you say. I am arguing that it is too broad a interpretation. Actually I said so since the first line I wrote.
 * Generally can also mean (according to your link) without distinction of one from others. In this sentence it means according to the common interpretation that players of fully professional leagues are unattached of details definitely notable. The following sentence is: "A player who [...] has not played in any games [...] is therefore not generally regarded as being notable." In this context generally obviously does not mean mostly. By the way notability guidelines would not really make sense if they would not be clear criterias. --Yoda1893 (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but I could not understand a thing you are saying. (A german (?) and a portugueses talking in english... something got lost somewhere...). Anyway, thanks, it is clear we will not change our minds for now, and that our opinions are different. - Nabla (talk) 06:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep footballer has played at a fully-professional level, thus passing WP:NFOOTBALL. --Jimbo[online] 18:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - fulfills ground rules Agathoclea (talk) 19:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. Has played at a notable level. Argyle 4 Life  talk  22:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Played at pro level thus passes WP:NFOOTBALL. Bacon and the Sandwich (talk) 12:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep as meets WP:NFOOTBALL. Whether the notability could be perceived the "bare-minimum" (per nom) or not is kinda irrelevent. ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 19:16, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.