Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/De Sarthe Gallery


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Cunard's sources seem to just raise this beyond the bar. ansh 666 22:22, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

De Sarthe Gallery

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This business apparently does not satisfy our new and improved notability requirements for companies, and probably didn't meet the old ones either. It carries on the routine business of art dealing, showing works of art in the hope of selling some of them. Some of these works are by notable artists, and so may receive some press coverage, in which there may be some passing mention of the gallery. But a business does not become notable because it works on notable jobs or because it sells notable products – a car dealer does not become notable because he sells well-known brands of car, a butcher's shop does not become notable because it sells a famous kind of meat, a second-hand charity shop does not become notable because it sells clothes made by famous companies, a plumber does not become notable because he works on a famous building. I tried to rewrite this article, but couldn't find enough in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources to say anything much about it. Even the South China Morning Post article, which is specifically about the gallery, has very little solid information. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Arts-related deletion discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. Hhkohh (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. Vexations (talk) 13:58, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Interesting. I looked at the article as it now stands and came to the opposite conclusion: the sources you found have given enough verifiable detail from reliable sources about this art gallery, over a sufficiently long period of time (2014 - 2018!) to push it over the threshold of notability. Weak keep. Deryck C. 16:28, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 07:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * —stop burdening us with the same nonsense that you are posting at so many of these discussions: "a business does not become notable because it works on notable jobs or because it sells notable products – a car dealer does not become notable because he sells well-known brands of car, a butcher's shop does not become notable because it sells a famous kind of meat, a second-hand charity shop does not become notable because it sells clothes made by famous companies, a plumber does not become notable because he works on a famous building." That tedious nonsense is largely irrelevant yet you've posted it or a variation of it not only at this article but here, here, and here. Bus stop (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, and all of those articles were deleted, because what said was accurate. Please do not badger this AfD as you have done at other AfDs. If you keep up the WP:IDONTLIKEIT and walls of text, I would say you are headed for a topic ban. 96.127.242.226 (talk) 20:31, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Let's look at the available online sources
 * Mostly quotes from Pascal de Sarthe, referring to opening of Hong Kong location.
 * cites the place of publication of an exhibition catalogue of Marie Raymond to show that the Gallery had a location in San Francisco.
 * does verify that de Sarthe participated in Art Silicon Valley San Francisco (not a notable art fair), with the artists mentioned, some who are indeed very notable but not typically represented by de Sarthe, like Robert Indiana (Paul Kasmin Gallery), Yayoi Kusama (Gagosian Gallery) and Bernar Venet (Paul Kasmin).
 * Is used to show that the gallery participated in the Art Basel Hong Kong art fair quotes Pascal de Sarthe as saying "We did very well last year, and it was repeated this year", "We have seen a lot of money coming to the art market" and "Chinese investors and collectors understand that art is a tangible asset." (Note that ABHK had 231 exhibitors in 2105, 239 in 2016, 241 in 2017 and 248 in 2018. Calling that "hundreds" to trivialize inclusion in the selection is not NPOV). But the information provided her is useless, and we already have a list of participants. I'm not convinced that participating in ABHK is even of sufficient encyclopedic interest to merit mention in the article.
 * I don't have a subscription to Barron's. The title indicates that the article is not primarily about de Sarthe.
 * This article discusses and contextualizes the selection of de Sarthe and is a good example of independent reporting and analysis. This isn't just the gallery talking about itself. Interestingly, it shows that de Sarthe particpated in the 2014 edition of ABHK, the so the statement that it supports is incorrect.
 * Not independent, just the gallery talking about itself.
 * In summary, I see one source that I think is any good, but it fails to provide enough information to create a comprehensive article. I'm not exactly overwhelmed by an abundance of great coverage, and even less impressed by the disgraceful involvement of paid editors. It's pathetic for a supposedly serious gallery to lower itself to hiring a paid hack to get an entry in an encyclopedia. Until we get better sources: delete, without prejudice to recreation by an unconnected editor once those sources emerge. Vexations (talk) 21:26, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Those sources have now been presented by Cunard below. Keep. Vexations (talk) 10:50, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete inadequate reliable sources to establish notability, per Vexation's excellent analysis.96.127.242.226 (talk) 19:27, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Change to Keep per Cunard's sources below.96.127.242.226 (talk) 01:46, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 96.127.242.226, did you also check out my remarks on those sources? -The Gnome (talk) 09:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: The previous discussions have been tainted by personal attacks. If you want to topic ban somebody, go to WP:ANI and make your case. Otherwise, just focus on the merits of the article and its sources.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  23:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * —you are evaluating an article that has already been gutted by . They started dismantling the article on June 10 and nominated it for deletion on July 2. Also, you write that "I'm not exactly overwhelmed by an abundance of great coverage, and even less impressed by the disgraceful involvement of paid editors. It's pathetic for a supposedly serious gallery to lower itself to hiring a paid hack to get an entry in an encyclopedia." While I agree with the sentiment that "It's pathetic for a supposedly serious gallery to lower itself to hiring a paid hack to get an entry in an encyclopedia", I wish to point out that that alone is not a reason for deletion. Bus stop (talk) 08:02, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It's true that we ought to consider the entire history of the article in a deletion discussion. I don't think we need to discuss https://www.desarthe.com/about.html, that should be obvious. I suppose could review https://www.artsy.net/show/de-sarthe-gallery-de-sarthe-gallery-at-art-basel-in-hong-kong-2017, a source that Justlettersandnumbers removed, but I think it's unnecessary. Artsy is there to "Promote your works and artists to the largest online art audience" per https://www.artsy.net/gallery-partnerships. As for Ocula, https://ocula.com/art-galleries/de-sarthe-gallery, same thing: For a monthly fee of only US$125 Ocula offers members a fully managed and comprehensive profile with features designed to raise international visibility, increase visitor engagement and deliver qualified sales leads on artworks. Did I miss anything else? Vexations (talk) 11:50, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * , do you have any thoughts about the sources I provided since the relisting admin would like editors to focus on the sources? Cunard (talk) 01:01, 29 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete : The subject lacks sufficiently convincing evidence of independent notability. The fact that the gallery is employing a paid contributor (notice I did not say "professional editor") lends more weight to the deletion argument. I mean, the article is keeling over as it is, yet aren't paid editors supposedly niftier than us plebeians?-The Gnome (talk) 13:48, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The creator of the article may not have been remunerated. They requested deletion per {t|db-author}}. We wouldn't be here had not declined the deletion as "may be notable". See  Vexations (talk) 14:09, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "Pascal de Sarthe, who has been dealing in Zao works for about 15 years, had to ask longtime clients for loans to cobble together 10 Zao paintings for the debut of his new gallery, de Sarthe Fine Art, in Hong Kong last month. The night before the opening, only three were left unsold. Mr. de Sarthe, a French-born dealer who was based in the United States before his recent move to Asia. ... The show, “Zao Wou-ki Paintings: 1950s-1960s,” will be on view at the gallery through April 29. ... The de Sarthe show tracks Mr. Zao’s evolution through the 1950s and ’60s. Two of the earlier pieces, “Bateaux au Port” (1952) and “Corrida” (1953), are still clearly figurative, showing the sketched outlines of sailing ships and bullfighting. These are also from Mr. Zao’s “Klee period.”  ...  The de Sarthe gallery joins a parade of new foreign-run galleries in Hong Kong’s Central district that specialize in blue-chip modern and contemporary artists. In the last year and a half, Ben Brown of London, Larry Gagosian of New York and Edouard Malingue of Paris have opened galleries. But de Sarthe is the first to open with a significant show by an Asian artist." <li> The article notes: "In 2012, after a long and successful run in first Paris then America as gallerists, Pascal and Sylvie de Sarthe opened a gallery in Hong Kong in Central, motivated by the time they were already spending in Asia for their business. Earlier this year, they moved to a bigger space at Wong Chuk Hang, attracted, as with other galleries which have opened in the area, by the lower rents and the easier access with the opening of the MTR South Island Line at the end of 2016. De Sarthe Gallery has, in the past 6 years, solidified their place in the Hong Kong art scene with headlining exhibitions, beginning with ‘Zao Wou-Ki Paintings: 1950s-1960s’, following up with the sophomore show of American artist David LaChapelle, and continuing with other well-received solo as well as group shows, such as ‘Gutai’ and ‘Pioneers of Chinese Modern Paintings in Paris’. ... De Sarthe Gallery has, through the years, been active in both the secondary and primary market, dealing in works by international modern masters as well as supporting emerging contemporary artists. Pascal’s son, Vincent, has taken up the mantle for the latter in Beijing, running a separate De Sarthe Gallery at Caochangdi, set up in 2014 as a platform for emerging Chinese artists." This includes detailed analysis of De Sarthe's history. The article notes that the June 2017 edition of the quarterly publishes an interview with de Sarthe.</li> <li> The article notes: "Hong Kong-based stalwart de Sarthe Gallery, which represents a diverse roster of international artists with a particular focus on French Impressionism and modern and postwar Chinese painting, opened a new space in Beijing’s Caochangdi gallery district on April 4. The inaugural exhibition at de Sarthe Beijing is devoted to the work of the Beijing-born multimedia and installation artist Zhou Wendou, who completed advanced studies in fine art at the University of Complutense in Madrid after graduating from the Central Academy of Art and Design in Beijing."</li> <li> The article notes: "Top-tier gallery de Sarthe has announced its expansion to Hong Kong’s new up-and-coming art district, Wong Chuk Hang. It will join the area’s 26 other art galleries, including Rossi & Rossi and Pékin Fine Arts. With two established branches in Beijing and Hong Kong, gallery owner Pascal de Sarthe has decided to invest in the city’s South Island Cultural District (SICD) “to embrace the energy of the area and open a gallery space that is unrivaled in Hong Kong.” The gallery will move into a much more spacious location inside the Global Trade Square building towards the end of the year, joining Japanese gallery Whitestone."</li> <li> The article notes: "Pascal and Sylvie de Sarthe launched de Sarthe Gallery in Paris in 1977 and moved to America in 1981. In 2011 they opened a space in Hong Kong and were recently joined in the business by their son Vincent who is based in Beijing. For Sydney Contemporary de Sarthe will present a group exhibition featuring Gilbert & George, Richard Long, Lin Jingjing, Mariko Mori, Zhao Jinhe, Zhou Wendou, Bernar Venet, and Wang Guofeng."</li> <li> The article notes: "Vincent de Sarthe, son of veteran dealer Pascal de Sarthe, will serve as director of the new Beijing outpost of Hong Kong– based de Sarthe Gallery, which opened in the Caochangdi arts district in April. The show “Borderless,” which runs through the end of this month, is devoted to the work of Beijingborn Zhou Wendou, who attended graduate school in Madrid and continues to live there part-time."</li> <li> The article notes: "Originally founded in Paris in 1997, Hong Kong’s de Sarthe Gallery is an impressive 9,820 sq ft art space that represents and exhibits a diverse spectrum of international artists from important French impressionists to Asian and western contemporary artists, as well as emerging talent. The team at de Sarthe really knows how to utilise the space and present some incredibly innovative exhibitions." The 1997 date is a typo. It should be 1977.</li> <li> The article notes: "When de Sarthe Gallery sought a place at Art Basel Hong Kong, they wanted to continue a dialogue that started in the early 20th century between Paris-influenced Chinese artists and their Western abstract counterparts. The Ice House Street gallery in Central was keen to show how Western art shaped these Chinese artists who worked in the French capital and inspired a yearning to break away from the old Chinese traditions in their artworks. De Sarthe's powerful narrative and historical journey was a perfect fit for judges of the Galleries sector of Art Basel Hong Kong, who looked for thematic presentations on the most important developments from Asia's art scene over the past 100 years. De Sarthe was thus accepted as one of more than 170 galleries featured in the main Galleries section of the fair."</li> <li> More information about the source: "ArtAsiaPacific. 2018 supplement, p103-107. 5p. 6 Color Photographs, 1 Black and White Photograph, 1 Map." Here is the article's abstract: "The article offers information on Carrie Lam who became Hong Kong's first female chief executive, supported by votes from the performing arts and culture subsectors. Topics discussed include role of Home Affairs Bureau in providing funds to art and culture programs for 2017 to 2018, renovation and reopening of the Hong Kong Museum of Art, and distribution of grants for artists and nonprofit organizations by the Arts Development Council." The article notes: "New to the area is de Sarthe Gallery, which moved from Central in 2016 and began programming in its new space in 2017. The gallery transformed 929 square meters to resemble an airport terminal in the imagined People's Republic of Dreamland, for 'Takeoff' (9/16–10/14), a solo show by Chinese artist Lin Jingjing. Earlier in the year, a rock-climbing wall was installed as part of Andrew Luk's one-week presentation titled 'Practice' (9/2–9), concluding the gallery's inaugural artist residency program."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow de Sarthe Gallery to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:05, 24 July 2018 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * How do we justify a gallery's notability? We only have WP:ORG as a guide. And the guideline states that the trivial or incidental coverage of a subject is not sufficient to establish notability. The guideline goes on to explicitly demand deep or significant coverage which means overview, description, commentary, survey, study, discussion, analysis, or evaluation of the organization. We do not have this in the links painstakingly (and admirably) gathered by Cunard above. All we have are incidental mentions of the gallery, with almost all the texts being about something else, an artist, the owner, etc.
 * The NYT archived text "Chinese Master, Modern Brush", for example, refers to artist Zao Wou-Ki.
 * We have "International art dealers in Asia" published in the "luxury lifestyle" magazine Luxuo, which is a cut-down version of an interview with the owner reading like an infomercial ("the gallery’s pioneering trajectory in presenting trendsetting curatorial ideas and content," etc) more than anything.
 * Then, there's an interview with Vincent de Sarthe, family member and Beijing gallery director, from a source upon whose Wikireliability I will leave others to decide: "After laying off staff, owner Louise Blouin outsourced editorial content to India but to make it seem as if there were still a 'cosmopolitan' staff, articles were given bylines with generic international names." (Source, but also see Louise Blouin Media.) And so on and so forth.
 * We do not have verifiability. -The Gnome (talk) 15:28, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Final relist.
 * Delete; those are an awful lot of tangential and churnalistic mentions of the gallery, but the collective impact doesn't get me to WP:ORG. -  Julietdeltalima   (talk)  21:27, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (talk) 05:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Vexations and 96.127.242.226, for changing from "delete" to "keep" after I posted the sources. Notability (organizations and companies) says: "The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject is not sufficient to establish notability. Deep or significant coverage provides an overview, description, commentary, survey, study, discussion, analysis, or evaluation of the product, company, or organization. Such coverage provides an organization with a level of attention that extends well beyond brief mentions and routine announcements, and makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization." The sources I linked above provide "deep coverage" about the subject. They provide analysis of the company. They make "it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization". Art+Auction published multiple articles about de Sarthe Gallery that make "it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization". Here is information closely paraphrased or copied from the articles: <ol><li>Pascal and Sylvie de Sarthe launched de Sarthe Gallery in Paris in 1977.</li><li>In 2011, the de Sarthes moved de Sarthe Gallery to Hong Kong.</li><li>de Sarthe Gallery represents international artists with a particular focus on French Impressionism and modern and postwar Chinese painting.</li><li>de Sarthe Gallery opened a second outpost at Beijing's Caochangdi gallery district on April 4, 2015.</li><li>The Beijing outpost is led by Vincent de Sarthe, Pascal de Sarthe's son.</li><li>The Beijing outpost's inaugural show was "Borderless," which featured the work of Beijing-born Zhou Wendou.</li></ol> Art+Auction is a reliable source. Its parent company, Louise Blouin Media, has been involved in controversies. From a source quoted above, "After laying off staff, owner Louise Blouin outsourced editorial content to India but to make it seem as if there were still a 'cosmopolitan' staff, articles were given bylines with generic international names." This is not the case for the Art+Auction articles I linked above, which were written by Darryl Wee, Claire Bouchara, and Nicholas Forrest, who are all real people: <ol><li>From http://artloftasia.com/blog/author/darryl-wee/: "Darryl Wee is head of visual arts for Asia at BLOUIN ARTINFO. He has previously written about contemporary art for Artforum, Art Asia Pacific, LEAP, Bijutsu Techo, the Japan Times, and the Wall Street Journal, and translated catalogues and essays on Gutai, Makoto Aida, Tadasu Takamine, Koki Tanaka and many other Japanese artists."</li><li>According to https://muckrack.com/claire-bouchara/articles, https://www.instagram.com/clairebouchara/, and https://twitter.com/clairebouchara, Claire Bouchara is a digital content manager at Bonhams.</li><li>According to https://www.instagram.com/theartmarketeye/, Nicholas Forrest is an art market analyst, art critic, Head of Visual Arts at BLOUIN ARTINFO, and founder of http://www.thealist.art.</li></ol> The other controversies at Louise Blouin Media about a defamation lawsuit (resolution not included in the article) and the failure to pay former executives and freelancers do not cast into doubt the reliability of Art+Auction's articles. The quarterly art magazine Art Republik provides detailed analysis of the gallery. From http://www.heart-media.com/magazines: "ART REPUBLIK is Singapore’s premier quarterly magazine for the art lover, celebrating the language of art. It aspires to be a platform for artists, curators and critics to express their insights on the world of art. Engaging the art lover in intellectually stimulating dialogues on art, history and popular culture, ART REPUBLIK aims to create meaningful exchanges between established and emerging artists, collectors and the art community. Our sections on the newest art exhibitions and fairs will also showcase the fresh and diverse views of art practitioners in various forms such as architecture, literature, fashion, film, and so forth." Here is a quote: "De Sarthe Gallery has, in the past 6 years, solidified their place in the Hong Kong art scene with headlining exhibitions, beginning with ‘Zao Wou-Ki Paintings: 1950s-1960s’, following up with the sophomore show of American artist David LaChapelle, and continuing with other well-received solo as well as group shows, such as ‘Gutai’ and ‘Pioneers of Chinese Modern Paintings in Paris’. The article's author wrote a positive review about the gallery following an interview with de Sarthe. I do not consider this positive review to be an infomercial. The New York Times article primarily is about Zao Wou-Ki but it also provides analysis of the gallery that could be used to improve the Wikipedia article. The article notes that Pascal de Sarthe asked clients to give him loans to procure 10 Zao paintings for de Sarthe Gallery's debut in 2011. It notes that the debut show showed Zao's "evolution through the 1950s and ’60s". It provides analysis of the company by saying that de Sarthe Gallery "joins a parade of new foreign-run galleries in Hong Kong’s Central district that specialize in blue-chip modern and contemporary artists" but is different because it is "the first to open with a significant show by an Asian artist". Cunard (talk) 01:01, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak keep per Cunard's sources. There's just enough beyond routine exhibition announcements - we now need to get the info into the article instead of just on the talk page. <b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b> <sup style="color:#800080">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  20:13, 2 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.