Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Death Valley Driver Video Review (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS, bordering on "No result". This is an AfD of the worst kind where two or three editors simply continue a debate they were already having without getting any much input from anyone else. This isn't helped at all by the descent into namecalling, bold and capitals at the end. This debate is not very useful for determining any kind of outcome, does not lean clearly in the direction of a delete, and anyway the previous AfD is much more sane and useful. -Splash talk 20:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Death Valley Driver Video Review
web site will little value which is not worth having entry on Wikipedia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JB196 (talk • contribs).
 * Comment: This AfD has been relisted by the above user, see previous discussion at Articles for deletion/Death Valley Driver Video Review. --Hetar 17:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep: If you look at the history of the page and the discussion earlier, he tried to instert comment after comment about how the folks there are Nazis and stuff, I worked with him to get NPOV and add a comment that satisfied his concerns, but instead he decided that he wanted it deleted instead. The article is better then it was in the first discussion, see no reason why it should be relisted SirFozzie 18:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete, absolutely no assertion of notability. No idea how this survived the first AfD. &mdash; AKADriver  &#x260E;  19:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Notability comes from it's position among the community, as well as the controversies that are mentioned in the article SirFozzie 19:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Its "Position in the community" isn't mentioned in the article, and the "controversies" are essentially just webforum/usenet flame wars. Bleh. &mdash; AKADriver  &#x260E;  19:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete (both vote changes explained below) Conditional Keep per TruthCrusader's comment in first AfD: Its one of the largest fan sites on the Internet. But some independent evidence of notability would be welcome. --Chaser (T) 21:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 11,300 Specific Ghits on "Death Valley Driver Video Review".. would do DVDVR (15 million Ghits) but that has a lot of DVD Format stuff too, but considering the length of the specific phrase, that says a lot. SirFozzie 21:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the extra post, but I just reran the GSearch and it came back 27,000 Hits. Weird. SirFozzie 21:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * How about newspaper articles or another credible source? Chaser (T) 21:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not sure if I can find it, but I'll look, (probably whole categories would have to go if that was a yea/nay point :) SirFozzie 21:49, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * All I could find on Lexis was a reference to a wrestling move Death Valley driver: Lift an opponent into a fireman's carry and drop him sideways, so he lands on his head. in St. Petersburg Times (Florida), December 24, 1998, SPORTS; Pg. 7C. That being said, I trust the other assertions to notability, so I'm not going to change my own vote. --150.243.160.93 04:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC) thought i was signed in. Chaser (T)


 * Keep: the user JB196 has a history of bearing a personal grudge against DVDVR and the sole purpose of this new deletion request is to satisfy that grudge. As I stated the first time, like it or not DVDVR is one of the largest wrestling-oriented fan sites on the Internet. TruthCrusader 22:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Notability is asserted in the article. Tons and tons and tons of Google hits. Very well-known site. Alexa ranking around 25,000. I see no reason at all not to keep this article. -- Kicking222 01:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete: As I said, it doesn't have the notoriety to be featured on Wikipedia. If we put every well known wrestling site that exists on here it would be clutter heaven. Where is Smarks/Rantsylvania? 411Wrestling? RajahWWF? SoCalUncensored? tOA (Otherarena.com)? Seriously, where are the entries for those web sites?


 * Furthermore, there used to be an article on wikipedia for TheSmartMarks.com and it was since removed, presumably because it is a web site and that is all. It is not fair for a web site such as that to have its entry be removed from Wikipedia and this one to remain. TheSmartMarks reaches a FAR FAR FAR broader community as it is one of the most frequented message boards in the pop culture world. It even got its own official poker line recently (http://thesmartmarks.com/partypoker). Yet where's TSM's entry (which previously existed...if it calls for it I'll try to dig it up)


 * Where's the articles for WrestlingObserver.com? PWTorch.com? The article itself is not exactly written from a neutral POV. It makes a small comment Lance Storm made out as if it was something that stirred up the entire Internet Wrestling Community, when in reality it was so minor the fact that its spotlighted is a joke. The day Lance Storm "goes to war" against DVDR (as is indicated by "DVDR vs. Lance Storm") is the day the Internet's existence should just end...


 * Even furthermore, SirFozzie, it is not fair for you to criticize me for trying to supposedly add comment after comment when just a few days ago you were editing my user page relentlessly to remove hostile comments you made a few weeks ago (such as "Don't know why I'm helping you since you decided since you weren't going to have your way with the article"---I've since reverted the page to the version it was before you removed those comments).


 * PS - Here are some recent threads about the downfall of DVDR:


 * I have to go but I will post some more threads later on if I get the chance. There is another one I am having a lot of trouble finding. It is on CZWFans and illustrates my point that the site has suffered a grave downfall in reputation over the last few years, but I am having trouble finding the thread.


 * - JB196 10:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, I worked with you through several revisions on the talk pages of DVDVR and our talk pages to find a statement that would fit your request and reamin NPOV. The reason why I reverted my copying of how to list the article for deletion, is because if you look at the bottom of your talk page, the categories "Articles: Listed for Deletion"? Was trying to do you a favor because it was my fault that your page was so listed. If there are other such noteable communities.. why doesn't someone write them.. I'm not familiar enough with the sites to do it justice. (Resigning this since I can, thanks Bix) 24.62.82.234 20:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Y'know you can just edit the old post and sign that... --David Bixenspan 19:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Here is an old thread about TSMs entry on wikipedia. Does anybody know why the "The Smart Marks" entry on wikipedia was removed? http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?showtopic=56905&hl=dames JB 22:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment Why don't you guys go fight this out on the article's talk page? This is clearly not going to end in a delete consensus. --Chaser (T) 21:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That's where we came from. Sadly, JB196 wasn't happy with what we hammered out and came here instead. SirFozzie 21:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep: I find it difficult to understand the comments of "X and Y don't have entries, why should DVDVR?", that simply means people with the sufficient knowledge should spend their time in a more constructive manner and create entries if they feel so strongly about it, rather than engaging in a campaign against the DVDVR entry? Sasaki 22:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep: In addition to what the above user posted, with regards to the earlier comment "Where is Smarks/Rantsylvania? 411Wrestling? RajahWWF? SoCalUncensored? tOA (Otherarena.com)?", according to alexa.com's traffic rankings, deathvalleydriver.com gets more traffic than any of those sites, and more hits than smartmarks.com as well. In fact 411Wrestling is the only one that even comes close. There is no reason for deletion. 00:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see much of a difference in traffic. between the two - http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&compare_sites=&y=r&q=&size=large&range=max&url=deathvalleydriver.com vs. http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&compare_sites=&y=r&q=&size=large&range=max&url=www.thesmartmarks.com%2F

They look about the same.

Sir Fozzie - there are other notable communities (such as TSM) and someone did write an article on that but for some reason it was taken down. I also think that Chaser was right initially in that there isn't any evidence of any mainstream credibility for DVDR. The point is that its not fair for one site's entry on Wikipedia to be removed while another one is still kept even though they have similar statistics.

The reason why I reverted my copying of how to list the article for deletion, is because if you look at the bottom of your talk page, the categories "Articles: Listed for Deletion"? - That sentence doesn't make sense gramatically so I dunno what you mean. JB 00:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment: What constitutes "mainstream credibility"? There are many entries for independent wrestlers and promotions on Wikipedia which are less well known than DVDVR, should they be deleted as well?  Should articles about say for example less well known jazz musicians be removed because they do not have "mainstream credibility"? Sasaki 03:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think "mainstream credibility" is really relevent here--Chaser bought it into the discussion, not myself.JB196 10:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's relevant either. I was looking for "independent evidence of notability". That said, I trust TruthCrusader's assertion that it's notable. --Chaser (T) 10:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment: Chaser - do you know anything about the web site in question or are you going just by what TruthCrusader says? And to anyone - what's the story with the TSM entry?JB 20:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Mostly TruthCrusader, though I reviewed everything again. For what it's worth, this page (from 2004) ranks the site 13th among pro wrestling fansites and this one doesn't include them, leading me to change my vote. Somebody should create a list of these sites and redirect this page to there.--Chaser (T) 00:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * May I point out that the second link should have no bearing on any decision? The main page clearly states "We are one of the most accurate ranking sites on the web with 30978 sites joining in 74 categories since September 25th, 2000.  Click on a category below to add your site for FREE!", so unless DVDVR has actually been added to the site  then it is unlikely to be listed.  Sasaki 01:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. Nonetheless, even if it were ranked first on both lists, there's no evidence it comes close to meeting WP:WEB.--Chaser (T) 02:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Your good point has nagged at me the last few days. I don't know enough about this and I am uncertain of notability, so I'm neutral.--Chaser (T) 07:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

TruthCrusader 11:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment The mere FACT that Lance Storm has had a real life feud with this website because of its work-rate top 500 rankings should be more than adequate to show DVDVR belongs on Wiki. There are VERY obscure entries on VERY obscure artists, musicians, people etc that NO ONE outside their respective genre's would recognize, yet their articles stand. This whole AfD is the product of a few disgruntled users who were booted off the board, and whose names I will NOT mention here..though i will say one of them has a VERY uncivil remark on his User Page about DVDVR that Wiki, in its usual double-standard admin action theory, has YET to erase.
 * This is a totally invalid point. Its a web site. He simply mentioned it, and I don't even think mentioned it by name. It's not a "Feud." Again, the point here is that there's a double standard. If TSMs entry was deleted, there's no reason why DVDR's entry should be kept either.JB196 12:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The SOLE Reason this article is even UP for deletion is because YOU have a personal grudge against it. Instead of being the bigger man and just letting it go, you are trying to take out your frustrations. The FACT is that Lance Storm did indeed have a VERY public feud with the website..the FACT is DVDVR IS one of the, if not THE biggest fan site devoted to wrestling on the planet..its gets MORE visitors and MORE Google hits than "The Smarks", which is a professionally maintained site. This whole process once again is a waste of time. TruthCrusader 17:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yahoo: 17,800 hits for DVDVR Google: 28,000 hits for DVDVR Alexa: 1156 hits msn: 1105 hits TruthCrusader 17:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * TruthCrusader, why don't you first try to change your tone from this hostile manner and THEN come back and discuss the issue? JB196 20:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per above. McPhail 16:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * COMMENT* Do we have any consensus on this? SirFozzie 16:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Forget concensus, that's not the issue anymore. The issue is why is past Wikipedia precedent being violated by having this article be maintained while the Smart Marks entry was deleted.JB196 18:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As for the scope of this AfD, I certainly would believe consensus is an issue, after all, that's what we're trying to reach here.. SirFozzie 18:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said I'm fine with the afD being withdrawn but in that case I think a neutrality message should be placed at the top of the article.JB196 18:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You had a shot to work towards a NPOV before this, and instead decided since you couldn't get statements from other boards calling the admins Nazis into the article, that you would try to get it deleted. Again,, I worked with you for several go rounds before this started.. you aren't looking for a NPOV, you're looking for a Non-NPOV that supports your acucusations. SirFozzie 19:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * SirFozzie - HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF CALLING ANYBODY A NAZI. I don't appreciate your tone nor your lack of civility as it pertains to this issue. I have never nor would I ever call anybody a Nazi, let alone somebody who runs a web site.

JB196 19:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * How dare I? I dare because it's the truth. Remember this comment, you posted to my talk page? "Yes, we definitely do need to come to some kind of concensus or else we're gonna continue trading edits. It is not "unbias" to argue that the public perception of DVDR has drastically deteriorated over the past two years. Prominent message boards such as TheSmartMarks.com, CZWFans, ROHWrestling.com and many others have seen an influx of threads hating on DVDR. Just a few weeks ago there was a 2 or 3 page CZWFans thread where poster after poster after poster criticized the "Naziism" of the DVDR crew. Now obviously "naziism" is a stretch, but its not a stretch to say the general opinion of the board has very much changed for the negative as of late. So what do you see wrong with my wording in my edit?" SirFozzie 19:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * SirFozzie I don't know how you're able to get away with such blatant uncivility (sp?) on Wikipedia. You really have some cahonies, first to make this issue personal when it shouldn't be and then to accuse me of calling somebody a Nazi. The paragraph you quoted supports my statement that I have never nor would I ever call somebody a Nazi. HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF CALLING ANYBODY A NAZI. Talk about offensive... You may have missed WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF so please take a good look at those pages. JB196 20:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.