Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deep democracy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Ironholds (talk) 14:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Deep democracy

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 * Delete This sounds like an essay on a topic that is original research. Markus Schulze 20:26, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philosophy-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:24, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:25, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Most of the references seem to be the work of the fellow who coined the term and promotes the theory. My question is whether the theory has been covered in depth in multiple reliable souces independent of the originator, or do the other sources just skirt the edge of the topic. I am not sure and hope experts in the field will comment. Cullen328 (talk) 23:41, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment A similar article (Deep Democracy Institute) has already been deleted. Markus Schulze 15:11, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - Smacks of social-science babble relating to a semi-proprietary term not in general use. I'm not sure whether to advise deletion or a massive rewrite, so I'll leave it at that. Carrite (talk) 20:33, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm reserving judgment on WP:N-compliance for now, just in case unambiguous RS appears, but I'm leaning toward "Redirect and Merge to a New Article: 'deep democracy'. Why?  A brief look at some of the search results suggests that the term deserves to be associated more with sources like  and, and Cornel West's thought, which grows out of New Left and Green movement roots from what I can tell.  However, these (and numerous other sources) render the term as "deep democracy".  This Arnold Mindell therapeutic/philosophical movement seems to be backforming a term from deep ecology, which at times has been similarly distinguished by capitalizing its constituent words, and which also stresses the interconnectedness of all things.  But deep ecology at least connects everything to underlying ecosystems.  Deep Democracy doesn't seem to connect anything concrete to anything else concrete.  Perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm having trouble finding RS on this Arnold Mindell sense of Deep Democracy.  However, "deep democracy" might be a sufficiently coherent idea as to merit its own article, even if secondary sources treating it as a subject per se are sure to be rather scarce at this point. Short of Redirect and Merge to New Article: slash everything out of the current article, and add new stuff from RS like the above sources.  Whatever's done, though, it should be done fast.  I hear them coming.  You know who I mean. Yakushima (talk) 06:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Further comment. This book  contains a chapter which might qualify as RS on Arnold Mindell's idea of Deep Democracy.  This book  is clearly strongly associated with Mindell, but it's from a print-on-demand publisher VDM Publishing that doesn't even do any copy-editing on submissions, so it's virtually self-published.   Iffy. This book, nods toward Mindell, and Kogan Page appears not to be a vanity press or semi-automated print-on-demand service (but check my work please -- there might be something in the fine print.)  This book  comes from an apparently respectable academic press, Cambria Press, specializing in publishing PhD dissertations.  It doesn't appear to be print-on-demand, it claims to pay royalties, and to put serious work into each book.  However, the author's strong personal connection to Mindell is undisguised.  This book  mentions "Deep democracy" as raised by Judith Green, author of one of the books above.  This book, from the apparently reputable Teachers College Press, has yet more references -- it doesn't mention Mindell but does mention Judith Green, suggesting that the idea is sometimes attributed to other authors who have only developed the Mindell idea further from.  I'm not sure yet, but some of these sources might be sufficiently independent of Mindell to be considered truly secondary.  Whether those sources have sufficient depth of treatment is another question.  Though I'd say "deep democracy" in the more mainstream sense is still the far more notable topic, I might end up changing my leaning to "Redirect to Deep Democracy (group facilitation)" or something like that, clearing the namespace for a more sensible deep democracy article. Yakushima (talk) 07:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yet further comment John Bradshaw nods toward Mindell even as he seems to be appropriating the term "deep democracy" for himself in other sources.  In self-help/therapeutic circles, Bradshaw is, of course, the infinitely more recognizable name.  And I don't see Bradshaw as apostle to Mindell -- they seem to have emerged separately.  I think all this adds up to independent notability of the Mindell sense of the term.  The Mindell sense might be distinct enough that a Deep democracy (psychology) and a Deep democracy (politics) (odd as the latter sounds) could be launched from a Deep democracy disambiguation page -- which might be the only way to break the apparent tie, here. Yakushima (talk) 08:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Blank the Page per WP:IAR. I'm trying to improve the article, but it's melting my brain.  It cites Siver's PhD thesis, which significantly cites this very article.  There seems to be no stable definition of the Mindellian Deep Democracy even according to Mindell and his followers.  It's.  Just.  Drivel.  Having good editors work on it will only melt their brains.  That's not good for Wikipedia.  Have bad editors work on it will only result in yet more drivel.  That's not good for Wikipedia, either.  BLANK THE PAGE PER WP:IAR. Yakushima (talk) 14:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - Alright, I've pondered. This piece is a load of Original Research hooey, in my estimation: The symbiotic connection between democracy and human development is an aspect of Deep Democracy but attempts to formally define deep democracy often result in formation of a procedural approach. Carrite (talk) 02:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.