Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Defense of the Redoute Ruinée


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Mkdw  talk 22:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Defense of the Redoute Ruinée

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This may well be a hoax as one source says it wasn't Italiens who were there in 1945 but German troops. Another says that it was taken by the French on the 30th of April 1945. The soldiers that were allowed to leave with honours were the French in 1940 honoured by the Italiens and not the other way round. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:18, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete unless improved -- I do not know if this is a hoax or not, but it appears to be about two battles, one in 1940 and the other in 1945. If there was a 1945 battle, the Axis belligerent would have been acting in the name of a Nazi-puppet state, possibly against French or Italian partisans.  Unless this can be split into two articles and clarified during the AFD period, I do not see how we can keep it.   If the clarification and splitting is done, it may be better to merge it with the broader articles on the two conflicts.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:37, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not really seeing that this is two articles. The first battle is clearly titled "Prelude".  In summary it says the Italians captured the position from the French in 1940.  It's useful background information.  And yes, the defence would be by forces of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). SpinningSpark 17:29, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment. No position on whether this article is accurate or the source reliable, but it is definitely not a hoax. The cited source is on gbooks.  A statement from the Italian commander on page 427 aligns with many of the facts in the article.  It confirms that the location was the Traversette, the date was April 1945, that the unit involved was the 4th Alpine Regiment, and that they were attacked by French Chasseurs.  The following text confirms that these were forces of the RSI. SpinningSpark 17:37, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Have you been able to confirm the dates ? The sources I found talked about it the French flag flying over the position on the 30th of April and the article states that they held out until May 4th. One of the French sources on the main page says that the whole department of the Alpes maritimes was free of enemy occupation by the 29th of April at a cost of 205 killed and 782 wounded whereas this article says that in this one episode there were more than 300 killed and 450 wounded. There seems to be some serious discrepancies between Carlotti and this source. Where does Carlotti say she gets her figures from? Dom from Paris (talk) 18:38, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Here is the source that mentions that as of the 29th of April the redoute ruinée is in French hands. Dom from Paris (talk) 18:47, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Another source stating that it was taken on the 29th of April . Dom from Paris (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * You'll have to read it yourself, I don't speak Italian and it is a pain transcribing it. Here's what I have; the commander of the platoon at the Traversette, Antonio Rossito, said he was ordered to hold to cover the retreat of the rest of the regiment and held out until 29 April.  The regiment commander, Lt. Col. Armando Felice, seems to have been in some kind of negotiation with the partisan leader Augusto Adam, and according to Carlotti, they both viewed the invading French as a common enemy.  Rossito wanted the partisans to provide logistic support so he could hold the front line.  Adam refused this, but agreed that Felice could retreat slowly to Aosta (presumably unmolested by the partisans) in order to slow the French advance and hope the Anglo-American forces got there first. <b style="background:#FAFAD2;color:#C08000">Spinning</b><b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 19:22, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Is there an online version? So the business of them holding out until May 4th is false? Another source that talks about it being occupied by "germano-italiens" of the 5th Gebirgsdivision and that it was taken on the 29th of April. . It looks like the story told in the article is more or less romanticised or WP:OR. The French source says that this episode cost than lives of 90 chasseurs alpins which is a long way from the 300 claimed by the Italian source. Dom from Paris (talk) 19:33, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep without prejudice to merging to Second Battle of the Alps. I cannot find the claimed casualty figures in the source cited (without page number) and that is a concern, but the page is not a hoax. The event happened. The article could be improved, but that's not a reason to delete. Srnec (talk) 22:15, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree the event did happen as shown by the other sources that I found the only problem is that almost nothing of what is written about the 1945 event is supported by the sources. The casualty figures the fact that they held on until 4th of May and surrendered to the Americans and were allowed to walk out with military honours. It would be interesting to hear from the article creator User:Kuru666 as to where this information came from. Especially in light of their edits to a number of pages involving French/Italian conflicts. Dom from Paris (talk) 22:48, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I have rewritten the article. Most everything in it checked out, although I cannot tell for sure forom the sources I used (so far) exactly when the Italians left the fort or when the French occupied it. It was not surrendered to the French. The forces that had held it presumably surrendered to the Americans on 4 May at Aosta. Srnec (talk) 03:05, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Good job. That said if we were to keep this article we would need to use French sources as well as it is clearly said in contemporary sources that the French flag flew on the redoute on the 29th of April. It also says that it was the 5th Gebirgsdivision that occupied the area. From what I can gather from the French sources the whole campaign in the area cost the lives of 90 Chasseurs Alpins including action in other skirmishes. This doesn't seem to have been a particularly important event compared to the event in 1940 where the Italians allowed the French to march out of the position with their arms. This looks like an effort to improve the image of the Italian army's action during the war by mixing fact and fantasy. I'm not part of the military history project and I shall let those that are decide if this is a notable enough incident to merit an article but it seems to me to be more than borderline as most of the information is purely routine. Dom from Paris (talk) 06:21, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
 * That's the same impression I got; a POV job – brave Italian soldiers holding out against French agression despite the political collapse of Fascism. That's why I have held off with a "keep" so far. <b style="background:#FAFAD2;color:#C08000">Spinning</b><b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 13:43, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Sailor 16:15, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. The creator is a tendentious editor who I will get around to scolding when I'm done cleaning up this mess. Congratulations to for making something useful out of it. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 23:09, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak keep Based on machine translation of a single source (since I read only a smattering of French), IMO "battle" may be too strong for what this was, but it does look like an actual event. If the sources support it, keep is merited.  TREKphiler  <sup style="font-family: cursive; color: #880085;">any time you're ready, Uhura  05:12, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Now keep -- It has been imporoved considerably and now has rather more references, ones that look credible to me. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:04, 25 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Not a hoax. Not much of a "battle" but notable enough.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  02:02, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Based on the improvements to this article, it appears that whatever this was, it is notable. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:18, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.