Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Democratic Foundation of Chameria


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No substantial support for deletion and only a single comment favoring a merge. Ad Orientem (talk) 02:35, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Democratic Foundation of Chameria

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The Democratic Foundation of Chameria, is an article about an Albanian ghost organization whose the leader enspouced extremist and nationalist political views and questionable claims (the leader illegally stylized/declared himself as President or Prime Minister of a non-existent Republic of Chameria - this rank and this country do not exist) and has expressed politically extremist and irredendist views against the territorial integrity of foreign states, particularly Greece). Furthermore, the leader of this ghost organization was recently found dead in Netherlands. The Dutch Police revealed to the press that he was involved in serious crimes such as money fraud, and the authorities suspect his death to be related to these crimes.

Looking thoroughly in the article Democratic Foundation of Chameria (or short for DFC), one can easily see that there are serious WP:OR issues, and a complete absence of reliable sources to WP:VERIFY the article's subject, which is about that DFC. In fact, the only sources cited in the article about DFC, are all dead and broken, and appear to refer to the foundation's website, which however is inaccessible.

The only reliable (and accessible) sources in the article, are about its leader's death (which should be moved to their own article about the person instead) and the Cham issue (which got already its own article). With simple words: any reliable sources found in the article, are not about the article's subject at all, in a violation of Wikipedia's rules. The presence of reliable sources in the article that are only about other subjects, already covered in other articles, cannot justify keeping this article from being deleted.

The article falls into WP:ADVOCATE, WP:OR and WP:NATIONALIST territory and lacks any WP:VERIFIABILITY and therefore it needs to be deleted. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 14:51, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Moaz786 (talk to me or see what I've been doing) 15:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Relax. Either the problems mentioned above will have to be addressed, or the article be deleted. Per ARBCOM, use of the Wikipedia project for other purposes—including, but not limited to, advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle—is prohibited. Wikipedia's rules regarding unverified information are quite clear. Articles from the Balkan topic area which are politically sensitive, is required that they meet the Project's minimal standards. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 16:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep The organization is mentioned by several news sources which elaborate on its ideology, activities and goals. Furthermore, it has participated at UNPO activities. I am adding some content to the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:58, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Good. in that case, the article can stay, however any other unsourced content needs to be removed, the article cleaned up and updated. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 16:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Seems to pass GNG.  OxonAlex    - talk  15:59, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment The article is entirely based on a couple of regional level newspapers (no wonder not a single non-Albanian or even Albanian speaking media at the national level mentions this organisation), even in those few newspapers there is too much wp:CRYSTALBALL. There is urgent need for additional material to save this one.Alexikoua (talk) 13:37, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree. I shall note that besides the problems you underlined, there is still content in it which is unsourced and it needs to be removed if no sources are provided. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 16:46, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Note I added some content sourced to several media outlets (none of them "regional"-- especially Top Channel) and UNPO's official page. I might make new additions if time permits (I doubt that). Anyone interested can find sources online and work with the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:52, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.   C Thomas3   (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.   C Thomas3   (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions.   C Thomas3   (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions.   C Thomas3   (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions.   C Thomas3   (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Seems to pass WP:GNG. --SalmanZ (talk) 22:01, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge for now changed after subsequent discussion below, merger discussions will resume on appropriate pages after this ends At it's current form at least, the article doesnt strike me as a case of ADVOCATE; discussion of cat fights between Lato and Idrizi are much more in the unfavorable depiction territory (or even BLP inasmuch as we discuss the accusation of accepting *gifts* from Greece). TopChannel and Telegraf arent really "regional". Some stuff like the alleged murder that didnt happen arent notable. I could also see a home for the info on this page on a broader page discussing modern politics surrounding the Cham issue too-- we dont need a bunch of stubs, it might be helpful to unify some of these, generally.--Calthinus (talk) 22:08, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, an article named sth like List of Cham organizations formed by merging several articles together would be sth good for the coverage of the Cham issue. However, since the merge would involve at least 4 articles, that should be discussed somewhere other than here. On this article's talk page or even on the talk page of WikiProjectAlbania. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:43, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Or Cham issue. But agreed, this is not the place.--Calthinus (talk) 17:07, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge: Though this is supposed to have been founded in 2006, gbooks, gscholar and the (English) googlenews receive zero hits. The best I've could find in academic literature was this work []: the name of the organisation is just included in a list of minor irredentist Cham-related organisations.Alexikoua (talk) 09:31, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I was thinking of merging this article with Albanian nationalism but the idea of a merging it into a list of List of Cham organizations sounds fine too. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 16:18, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course, after you tried to get the article deleted with irrelevant arguments, you support merging it. Anyhow, I am not going to waste my time repeating what I have already said regarding the difference between an Afd debate and merging articles. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:38, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ktrimi991, are you telling us that by the time my deletion proposal was made (and prior to your intervention and subsequent attribution of sources), that the article wasn't in line with Wikipedia's Deletion Policy regarding articles with no attribution of reliable sources? Please calm down. Your tense response to me, right now, is not constructive, and shows someone close to the topic with grievances. I kindly ask you that you avoid commenting on editors and focuse on the problems pertaining the article. Thank you. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 17:32, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * There was no tension in my response to you. Another editor said just after you nominated the article for deletion (and before I edited it) that your arguments seem to be in IDONTLIKEIT territory. You firstly wanted this article deleted, then "cleaned up and updated" and now merged with other articles. I am not against merging some of the articles on Cham organizations (probably not this one but 4 or 5 five others) but the place is not here for that discussion. Your tense response to me, right now, is not constructive, and shows someone close to the topic with grievances. I do not want to discuss on editors, and their personal stuff. But since you are accusing me, I remind you of your own words . However, I do not think am going to respond here anymore. I expressed my opinion; continuing with rather off-topic stuff is of no help. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:59, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Even in that old comment you cited now, I was repeating to you that: "Lets focuse on the article content. Thank you". Read what you cite. If you can't abide by Wikipedia's rules and relax, then I suggest you take a WP:BREAK. Don't expect further replies from me, I am not interested in anyone's grievances, let alone yours, and I suggest you do the same.
 * Back to topic: fellow editors, do we agree that the article doesn't have to be deleted anymore and rather be merged? However if we are to start a discussion on merging the article with others, we should at least consider the content in it which isn't the subject of the article, yet it is sourced. The question is about the organization's head. Besides the obvious fact that info about him will have to be trimmed down when the article is merged (but shouldn't be removed), the trimmed down content can go somewhere else. I am not sure how useful idea it is, but I was wondering if the creation of an person article about Festim Lato, the criminal and so-called president of Chameria. He has gained notability in local media, both for his nationalist and criminal activities, which IMO falls under WP:NOTABILITY. What are your thoughts?--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 18:23, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * On Festim Lato -- possibly but the page would be very reliant on "regional" media -- as long as we're all cool with that, I'd be down for a new page. I can support making List of Cham organizations but that means someone has to do work to make a new page rather than only talk about it-- and I have other food on my plate, promises of wikiwork that have not gotten done yet. If someone volunteers I'd support that. Otherwise I'd suggest a simple merger into Cham issue -- if there's no objections I'll start the proposal on that page.--Calthinus (talk) 19:04, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Since you pinged me, I know you want to focus on stuff other than the Cham issue/Greeks in Albania etc. A new article on Cham organizations would need a good amount of effort and knowledge. Merely copy-pasting content from other articles is not of value. PDIU, Democratic Foundation of Chameria and "Shoqata Cameria" deserve their own articles. The rest should be, in my view, placed in an article named sth like List of Cham organizations. Merging with Cham issue would not be a good idea, since we are talking about several organizations that currently have their own articles. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:13, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Aight I won't start the proposal then. At the very least we should link them in some way, with a navigation box perhaps? They should all be considered in the context of each other, imo.--Calthinus (talk) 19:15, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * to clarify -- imo -- electorally or otherwise highly significant and well-covered entities like PDIU should obviously keep their own articles. My main shtick here is that there should be an easy way to navigate between the different pages for Cham organizations. We have the "organizations" tab in the Cham Albanians box, but readers don't see it unless they expand that, and a lot of the info is cultural/historical whereas most readers of this page will only be interested in the current political organizations.--Calthinus (talk) 19:19, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I totally understand and agree with you. The Ch. Albs. box contains only some of the Cham organizations that currently have their own articles. I do not have much information on Cham organizations but I can see there are more than 8 Cham organizations that have their own articles. I do not have the time to focus on this matter, so creating a List of Cham prganizations and moving there the content of the articles of Cham organizations other than PDIU, DFC and "Shoqata Cameria" could be the only viable solution. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:32, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * PDIU is a political party, not organization. There is an obvious difference here; I don't get how PDIU got involved in all this. A list of organizations where political parties are not present in it, is fine and does not go against the project's rules in any way, so I am positive no one could oppose this idea. @Alexikoua: what is your opinion? Sorry for asking but your input on Albania-related article is noteworthy, and your skills with Google and sources are much better than mine. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 19:49, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The Cham issue and Albanian nationalism are two related but separate things. The latter has a history of over a century before the former was born. Likewise Greater Albania is also separate, because (a) Cham organizations often demand Greek citizenship rather than a change in borders and (b) Albanian irredentism is more often focused solely on Kosovo, Malesia, Ulqini and Polog, not Chameria which would involving absorbing a large new group of Greeks who would somehow have to be magically persuaded to be happy about now being in a much poorer state than Greece (neither of these complications exist so much for the typical "targets" of Albanian irredentism). --Calthinus (talk) 18:59, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not sure. The Democratic Foundation of Chameria asked for the dissolution of Greece and the formation of a new Confedetation that has 2 constituent parties in it: Chameria, and an Epirusless Greece. . I am not saying that whatever the nationalists behind this whole "Republic of Chameria" thing are serious or not, but I am just noting that it is not as much different than other forms of Albanian nationalism as you may think. I hope I am wrong and you tell me that this is just a joke or something that doesn't even fall under the concept of Albanian nationalism, but oh well... Whatever is the case here, I am open to your opinions, and I shall remind everyone we will need emphasize on WP:RS and avoid mistakes of the past, where other forms of nationalism in the Balkans, were downplayed and underestimated before Wikipedia finally decides to go ahead and tackle and attribute them properly, as forms of nationalism. (and I am referring to the Macedonian nationalism)--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 19:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The Cham question is one specific issue, Albanian or any other nationalism is an overarching ideology that claims to have an answer to it and other such questions. Different but related. Here is not the venue.--Calthinus (talk) 20:48, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.