Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denial of the Holodomor


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. -- Cirt (talk) 12:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Denial of the Holodomor
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This article currectly is a POV fork of already existing articles Holodomor, Holodomor genocide question and Holodomor in modern politics. The article is created to make the reader think that the denial of Holodomor is a denialist belief, and hence, according to English meaning of "denialism", false, to evoke associations with Holocaust denial and so to push a point of view that the famine was intentional genocide of Ukrainian people by Bolsheviks, comparable to the Holocaust. The previous deletion request for this article was heavily influenced by the members of the so-called WP:EEML group, a coordinated cabal which was discovered later (at least 6 votes were by the EEML-associated users). Compare the similar discussions Articles_for_deletion/Soviet_occupation_denialism and Articles_for_deletion/Denial_of_Soviet_occupation about articles, created by members of the same group and with similar aims. The both articles were deleted as POV forks designed to push certain agenda. I believe the capacity of already existing three articles about the same topic is enough to reflect any possible points of view on the subject. Dojarca (talk) 10:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Holodomor genocide question, move useful content to new article Historiography of the Holodomor. – Claims of 7 to 10 million deaths by Robert Conquest and others are based on population statistics, derived from censuses. The detailed modern study of population data shows the number of deaths from the famine in Ukraine to be 2.2 million. According to Holodomor theorists, citing this number would constitute "Denial of the Holodomor". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. See also "controversial" Armenian Genocide denial ("Western propaganda"). Peltimikko (talk) 15:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * From that article "The Armenian Genocide is widely acknowledged by genocide scholars to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides" - this is not the case of Holodomor which assertion as genocide is controversial. This article represents this point of view as incorrect.--Dojarca (talk) 20:17, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep as sourced and notable. --Yopie (talk) 20:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep as shown by sources topic distinct enough to merit own article. Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:21, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Marik. Edward321 (talk) 14:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep the topic is very important, since denial of Soviet atrocities in general, and Holodomor in particular, is a part of modern historic revisionism that is popular in some post-Soviet states (where the Soviet anthem is still respected)--vityok (talk) 15:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That the famine is a "Soviet atrocity" is not universally accepted. This title is inherently non-neutral.--Dojarca (talk) 18:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Universal acceptance is not a requirement for for inclusion in Wikipedia, reliable sourcing is. If the title is non-neutral, that's grounds for changing the title, not deletion of the article. Edward321 (talk) 14:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The topic is already well covered in other articles which are named neutrally.--Dojarca (talk) 07:30, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. A surprisingly in-depth article covering the issue since the 1930s. The title can indeed be changed if necessary. The word denial does suggest an association with the Holocaust, and may be POV given the lack of consensus on the Holodomor genocide question, but this article deals with those who denied that famine existed altogether, so it's a somewhat separate issue from whether the famine constitutes genocide or not. Tijfo098 (talk) 21:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep, per the WP:PRESERVE policy (72 refs) but I hope to see interested parties at a move discussion - to historiography of the famine, a more neutral and inclusive title. Novickas (talk) 23:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep there is a huge difference from the "Soviet narrative" of the famine as a whole, and the coordinated campaign to discredit and deny the events as a whole.--Львівське (talk) 03:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Close this per SNOW? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.