Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Despotate of Sinope


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to Empire of Trebizond. Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:36, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Despotate of Sinope

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

There never was a state called "Despotate of Sinope". David and Alexios Komnenos were co-rulers of the same state, i.e. what later became known as the "Empire of Trebizond", simply based in different areas. Both claimed the imperial title of Constantinople, and neither ever bore the title of "Despot". The very name of this article is nowhere to be found in the relevant bibliography, and is a neologism apparently created by OR in the 2005 Catalan WP article this derives from. I initially redirected this to David Komnenos, but re-created it. Although well-intentioned, I am sorry to say that this was not helpful. Constantine  ✍  09:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn;t just recreate it, I did my bloody homework and translated it. But according to [here] there was. Now, the facts might be incorrect, but the thing to discuss is is it notable? I did a rough translation from the Catalan to enable others to judge, please don't fault me for that. Si Trew (talk) 13:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's also a reference to the Despotate of Sinope here]. And Diogenes of Sinope had something to say about it. Si Trew (talk) 13:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't fault you for re-creating it, it just seems a pity to go through all that work for nothing. Again, there was no "Despotate of Sinope". The site you have linked says nothing about such a state, it mentions Sinope merely as a city within the Empire of Trebizond, which is accurate. A Despotate is a completely different thing, I suggest you read the relevant article (Despot), and is not applicable here for the reasons I mentioned above. You can easily check the term in Google Books, Google Scholar or even the plain Google, it simply does not exist. Constantine  ✍  13:53, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Riiight... You do understand that Diogenes of Sinope lived one and a half millennia before the period we are talking about? Because if you do not understand this, then please stop editing in Wikipedia right now. Constantine  ✍  13:55, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I know what a Despot is, I have a wife]. Yeah, it is a tricky one isn't it. I am glad you realise I edit in good faith. Maybe it should go then. Si Trew (talk) 14:13, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I think I understand &mdash; your argument is not whether there is a place called Sinope but whether there is a despotate or was ever one there? Books seem to vary on the matter but I would go along with you. But still, is it a likely search term? If it is not a likely search term it should be deleted, but then should we merge a bit of content into Sinop, Turkey or what? (Sinope is a DAB for which that is the first entry). Si Trew (talk) 14:19, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is a likely search term, quite simply because it is freely invented. It is like asking whether "Federal Republic of Bulgaria" or "Kingdom of Moscow", are likely search terms. As for merging content into Sinop, Turkey, there isn't anything that could be merged as the article doesn't really say anything pertinent about the history of the town during this period. Constantine  ✍  14:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 16:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 16:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Do what is best. I only wanted it to come to AfD to clarify these matters that are being discussed. I think I will abstain, as I do not yet know the immediate subject area, or its sources, well enough to make a judgement. Thank you. —PC-XT+ 17:22, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know either. The question is if someone else didn't know and was trying to look up an encyclopaedia to find out would they find what they were looking for?  They wouldn't find it at Sinope since that is a DAB, but maybe they would I really am not sure but I think it is better for the article to stay.   22:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment :I admit I am not familiar this subject. But according to my sources Alexios Komnenos supported Izzeddin Kaykaus  when the later laid a siege on Sinope. This event shows that Sinope was independent of Trebizond . (Anyway in 13th century Anatolia nobody was able to form a truly centralized government, up to Mongol domination) Thus I think the article can be kept. If desired the title of the article may be changed. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. To be clear, I did a rough translation of this so that others had a chance to judge. My Catalan is not brilliant but I just threw in a rough translation and another editor cleared it up a bit. I haven't marked the tags on the talk page for etc since it went to AfD so quickly I couldn't see the point but will do that if it stays. I just wanted to do a rough translation so that other editors could judge and if it stays I will tidy it up a bit. Si Trew (talk) 13:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Hello Nedim. I'd like to see your sources, because if the conflict you are referring to is the Siege of Sinope, at that time the town most certainly was not separate of Trebizond, and Alexios did not support Kaykaus. An article on a "Despotate of Sinope" presupposes two things: a) that Sinope was separate or at least autonomous within Trebizond, and b) that it was led by someone with the title of Despot. The second is patently false, and the first is way too bold a statement to make given the nature of our sources for the period, and the rather undefined hierarchical relation between the two brothers David and Alexios. Anyhow, it should be clear that the original creator of this article in the Catalan WP misinterpreted his sources (if he had any) and created ex nihilo a subject that did not exist. In light of this, I really fail to see the purpose of debating any solution other than deletion, especially given the underdeveloped nature of the article in question. Constantine  ✍  13:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete or redirect to Empire of Trebizond or perhaps Siege of Sinope. Whatever this was it was very shortlived.  As I read it Alexios and David Komnenos seized Trebizon shortly after 1204.  Sinope was captured by the Turks in 1214.  While under seige, inevitably local offeres would be in control of the town, but that does not mean that it was in rebellion; merely that the emperor was not strong enough to relieve it.  There may be a little that could be merged to Sinop, Turkey.  Peterkingiron (talk) 13:09, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 02:42, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

 
 * Comment for the record, the Spanish equivalent article has been deleted, and the original Catalan article is going the same way. Constantine  ✍  11:49, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Northern Antarctica (₵) 04:02, 4 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. Having read widely in the secondary literature on the Empire of Trebizond for the last 6 months, I have not found any reference to a "Despotate of Sinope". One could say that David Komnenos did rule a territory extending over Paphlagonia between the core of the Empire of Trebizond & the border of the Nicaean Empire, & that he was arguably independent of his brother, but AFAIK no one has given his domain a distinct name. All of the experts refer to it as a part of the Empire of Trebizond. As for the content, it's either outdated (David Komnenos is now known to have died as a monk on Mount Athos 1212, 2 years before the Seljuks captured Sinope) or incorrect (for example: Tamar of Georgia did not found this state specifically, & Enric d'Hainaut was not David's brother). Sorry to be so brusque, but despite the good faith of its creator this article simply isn't worth keeping. -- llywrch (talk) 17:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete per llywrch. At RfD where I tend to hang out (and where this was originally listed before swiftly coming here), it is not a question of being "right" but whether it is a likely search term. However, for an article, if the facts are incorrect to this extreme, it should go: we are not in the business of being misleading. Again I repeat, I only roughly translated it to give other editors a chance to judge: Constantine's comments above, and llywrch's here, convince me that this article is harmful to EN:WP. We could redirect it to Empire of Trebizond, if you think that wise. As I say, redirects do not have to be correct in the way that articles must be, the criterion is basically is someone likely to search for it, but is it a likely search term? Si Trew (talk) 09:55, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. The best might be to list Siege of Sinope at the DAB at Sinope, and cut this article entirely. Whether Empire of Trebizond should be listed there I don't know, since patently at least two other editors know far more about this part of the world than I do and I would leave them t judge. Si Trew (talk) 10:15, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.