Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dick Gordon (sports writer)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Discussion after significant expansion has leaned as such.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 03:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Dick Gordon (sports writer)

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no indication WP:notability. Sourced entirely from an obituary in the paper he worked for. Google does not show anything significant. noq (talk) 13:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Delete Fail of notability criterion Jacob-Dang — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacobDang (talk • contribs) 16:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 20:32, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Gordon was a very well known sports writer when he was working. The reason many things aren't on Google is because none of his work was published to the internet. In fact, when many past famous athletes from Minnesota are asked about sports writers they liked, Gordon was often one of the most memorable for them. Regardless, here are a few things on the internet I found: User:Gordgus (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-131695434.html
 * http://milkeespress.com/minnesotamyths.html
 * http://www.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?710-A-Great-Sportswriter-Died-Yesterday
 * Comment The first reference is like the reference in the article from the paper he worked for. The second reference is a single line mention. The third reference is a forum. We need things written about him - not by him - in independent WP:reliable sources. noq (talk) 19:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment The original source I had provided wasn't written by him, and it seems to be reliable. I do not see how Wikipedia would be improved by deleting this article. Sorry, am I missing something?

User:Gordgus (talk) 20:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The original source is by the paper he worked for and so is not independent. The question is not whether it would be improved by deleting it but if it would be improved by leaving it. Without independent reliable sources cannot be shown. noq (talk) 23:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment There's not much more you can expect from the internet about a topic like this. Gordon was noteworthy by people from his generation -- people who don't (or didn't) use the internet much. And of course this would improve Wikipedia. Anyone looking for information on the guy might stumble upon this page, right? Of course, you have more experience dealing with this than me, but I'm confident this page belongs. User:Gordgus (talk) 1:05, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Deletefails WP:RS and the sources need to be on the page not in the deletion discussion. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. I'm seeing a bunch of his articles reprinted in Baseball Digest and at least two independents which seem to cover him directly. Please allow me to source this page before closing. BusterD (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I found Editor & Publisher discussing an anecdote about hockey which included him, a passage from a publication of the state historical society using his opinion of Bobby Marshall, a story about him in a contemporary (1970) sportswriting textbook, and a profile of him (which I can't see) in a standard reference for notable sportswriters. That's four independent reliable sources, at least two of which directly detailing. Not all sources need to be online. Put together with the obit, we have enough to meet GNG. And the obituary says he got his big scoop (hence the nickname) on Bobby Jones 78 years ago! A man who was an active sportswriter for almost 80 years? That's notable if verified and the obit (from an RS, if not completely independent) does exactly that. BusterD (talk) 17:31, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Further comment. It appears the obituary written by Joe Christiansen was the Star Tribune's sports department coverage of the death, very unusual. The normal family obit is archived here. I've added SI's and his college journal's notices of his passing; this latter notice confirms the "Scoop" story, but I've used it only to cite his birth name and death date. The "works" section just begun could add dozens of archived stories online. BusterD (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Thanks. Is there anything I should do to clean up the article? User:Gordgus (talk) 5:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep A long career writing for many notable publications, makes him notable. He also wrote The official National Collegiate Athletic Association basketball guide in 1964 .  The name is common enough that its hard to sort through all the results, there an astronaut, a football player, and a mayor by that name.   D r e a m Focus  18:03, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 05:45, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete: no depth of independent coverage to indicate that the topic meets WP:GNG, no indication that he meets WP:AUTHOR either. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:22, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I'd assert a documented sports journalism career spanning eight decades is extraordinary. Offline sources on this subject must be considerable. BusterD (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes, there are clearly a huge amount of offline sources. I'd imagine he wrote 800+ articles during his career, and quite possibly many many more than that. Unfortunately, many of the online archives of newspapers or what not that he worked for at best have articles ranging back only a few years before he retired. The bulk of his career is unarchived online, but there are a decent amount of remnants that I am still trying to uncover. User:Gordgus (talk) 20:47, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd point out that your assertion is completely irrelevant, both to my point and to the guidelines. Nor does your assertion necessitate your conclusion. He wrote a lot does not imply that a lot was written about him -- and it is the latter that we require, both for WP:Notability, and to write an article. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 01:10, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * His large amount of works imply that his job was writing. Having a full-time job writing typically means many people read is work, implying notability. That's kind of what I was getting at. Editors have also uncovered more things written about him, and the article looks like it's in much better condition. User:Gordgus (talk) 7:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The difference between where we started and where we are is significant. I'd invite those who have previously looked at the page to re-browse the content and check sources. While originally created by an interested party as a WP:MEMORIAL, this subject now has the sources and the notability to remain in an encyclopedia, thanks to assistance with page rescue by the pagecreator and generous help from a user with whom I disagreed in another sports-related deletion process. In explaining why I held my beliefs, I found a kindred spirit in the editor with whom I disagreed. That's why I love this place; the two of us disagree on the merits, but we agree 100% on being and acting like Wikipedians. I'll continue to build and source the page as it evolves. And if it turns out that nice editor prevails in his assertion to keep there, I'll follow the page the editor defended as well. BusterD (talk) 23:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep There's enough here to satisfy WP:GNG in my opinion.  He appears to have been one of the pre-eminent sports writers in the US from the late 1940s through the 1970s.  He is not a small-town or minor sports writer. The Sporting News published 246 of his works from 1947 to 1976.  His work was regularly featured in Baseball Digest, the oldest, continuously publishing baseball magazine in the US, and he was also a correspondent for Sports Illustrated (the most prominent sports publication in the US) from its earliest days in the mid-1950s.  His importance dates all the way back to 1930 when he broke the story of Bobby Jones' retirement and thus earned the nickname "Scoop."  When he died in 2008, his life achievements were covered (at a minimum) in the Minneapolis newspaper, Sports Illustrated and the Princeton Alumni News. Cbl62 (talk) 23:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - At this point there seems to be enough evidence that he satisfies GNG. Rlendog (talk) 19:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - This one is borderline in terms of sourcing, but I believe that the benefit to the encyclopedia of keeping the biography outweighs any potential benefit of making this go away. Sufficient career achievement to merit encyclopedic biography. Those of you who hate my use of the "rule of reason" here may be referred to one of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia: Ignore All Rules. In other words, use common sense to make the encyclopedia better. Carrite (talk) 04:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.