Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Die volle Dröhnung


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Allow me to clarify a couple of things - "delete and merge" isn't really a viable option, per our license. Either they are deleted, or they are merged, not both. Also, it seems that the main discussion here is really whether these albums have standalone notability, and even the nominator says xe would not necessarily want to "lose" the information, hence we don't really have a deletion discussion here, we have a merge discussion. Merge discussions are for the talkpages of the article, usually the parent article. Find consensus there as to whether these should remain standalone articles or be merged/redirected. FWIW, if they are unlikely to have any prose in them, sourced independently (i.e., reviews, reactions, charting, impact, etc), and are more likely to stay simple track listings, then per our clear guidelines and precedent should be merged. Again, that's for the talkpages to sort out amongst interested editors. Keeper  |   76   |   Disclaimer  18:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Die volle Dröhnung

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

No notability asserted per WP:MUSIC. Prod will undoubtedly be contested considering the fervour with which my changing the article to a redirect was removed. I suggested to the author that this and the other album articles for this artist should be merged into a single discography page, but this has been seemingly construed as a request to create an additional page for a discography. I requested help over this issue at Editor assistance/Requests, and was advised to bring the issue here. I know opinions on music notability can be sharply divided, so I would like to ensure I'm following the correct policy. CultureDrone (talk) 06:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related pages by the same artist - again, no notability asserted:


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  23:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  23:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Question WP:MUSIC states that in general, if the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Wikipedia. I get the impression that these albums are solo works from Tom Angelripper with some sort of moniker used in front of his name. From the discography page, I see that at least two other notable individuals were involved in recording one or more of these albums, namely Axel Rudi Pell and Jörg Michael. There is also one other release listed in the discography page that you have not included in this afd: Delirium (single). A google search further revealed that these albums were released jointly by Drakkar Entertainment and Bertelsmann Music Group (now Sony BMG) under the G.U.N. Records GmbH imprint: eg. 1, 2. You state that the albums listed above are not notable but that is a rather vague and general statement, one that is generally expected at any Afd. Could you explain further as to why you think these albums are exceptions to the general guideline above? More specifically, why you think these albums are not notable enough for individual articles but yet notable enough to merge onto a discography article as you suggested? --Bardin (talk) 14:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC) 
 * Comment - as you say, WP:MUSIC says "...then officially released albums may have sufficient notability ..." (my italics) - as with every album, single or song article (and everything else in WP), notability generally has to be established for the album, regardless of the band/musician - except possibly in the case of musicians so well known that anything they do is considered notable. I haven't been able to determine any notability for the albums mentioned in terms of reliable third party coverage, a high chart position etc. WP:MUSIC says "Individual articles on albums should include independent coverage", yet I can't find any - though I'm not saying that there isn't any, and also states that "Album articles with little more than a track listing may be more appropriately merged into the artist's main article or discography article" - since the articles mentioned are nothing but a picture of the cover and a track listing, and because of the lack of verifiable third party references, I believe they fall into this category - a track listing is not (imho) encyclopedia content, and is readily available from dozens of other sources. As stated at the beginning of WP:NOT, "merely being true or useful does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia". Since the musician is notable in his own field, and since the albums may at some point develop into something more than a track listing, I believed the most effective approach in this case was to suggest the editor create a discography article to hold the relevant information (along with the other 1,183 articles in that category), and redirect the individual articles to the discography. I'm not disputing the notability of the musicians or their bands, merely these particular articles in their current form. :-) CultureDrone (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I should also probably add that (again, imho) keeping the articles in some form is better than a simple delete because the musician is notable in his field - if the articles were simply deleted, then we'd probably end up with the same virtual stub articles in a few weeks/months. :-) CultureDrone (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. There does seem to be a shortage of sources in English for these albums so delete and merge with Onkel Tom Angelripper discography with no prejudice towards recreation if the articles can be expanded beyond a mere track listing with verifiable sources. --Bardin (talk) 05:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 69.140.152.55 (talk) 03:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete and Merge per above. Not notable on their own, but ok for discography article sections. Make into section redirects, then no info lost, and just as easy to find.Yobmod (talk) 14:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Already mentioned here, and that is sufficient. WWGB (talk) 02:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep all or merge all into Onkel Tom Angelripper discography without loss of information. I think that these albums are notable within the spirit of WP:MUSIC, that WP:MUSIC is ambiguous enough that virtually any album may or may not be notable under the mere letter of the guidelines, and that we should err on the side of preserving the information in these articles. If there's a consensus objecting to the articles' simple independent existence because they may not pass the music guidelines, I don't see anything wrong with merging the information in them into the discography page. -- The_socialist talk? 06:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.