Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dilla Massacre


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus, possibly rename.  JGHowes   talk  02:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Dilla Massacre

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This article fails WP:N, with no reputable published sources discussing a "Dilla massacre". Almost no mention of it anywhere other than forums up until early 2019. Seems like original research and dependent on non-reliable sources (e.g. http://allssc.com, http://boramanews.com). Koodbuur (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. This fails WP:GNG with no mentions of a “Dilla massacre” in published reputable sources (nothing appears for “Dilla massacre” on Google/scholar/Jstor..etc). Seems like a synthesis of mostly non reputable sources that discusses a conclusion/neologism not stated by any published reputable source, as such also fails WP:OR. --Kzl55 (talk) 21:06, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

The Dilla Massacre page has used over 30 different published academic sources. The sources are listed here: See: , ,, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . Therefore this page is absolutely legitimate and doesn't warrant deletion in anyway whatsoever. This should be discussed in the talk pages instead of nominating for deletion. There are many sources that state this massacre took place. I have given over 30 and there are many more aswell. MustafaO (talk) 22:04, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * None of the sources stated discuss a "Dilla Massacre", and as such the article fails WP:N. Koodbuur (talk) 09:12, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The title of the page 'Dilla Massacre' could easily be moved and there are protocols for changing the title, refer to the talk pages for that. However, the sources are evident in that this incident took place and there are over 30 sources for it, as I've already shown. Therefore, it's unjustified to nominate for deletion. MustafaO (talk) 13:17, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * To reiterate my previous comment, none of the 30 sources listed discuss a "Dilla Massacre". Furthermore, many of these citations do not even discuss the town of Dilla. This isn't an issue of an inaccurate title, but rather an issue of an original research article failing to meet WP:N. Koodbuur (talk) 15:55, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

''' The article discusses massacres that took place in the Awdal Region against a specific community. The title of the article is a reflection of the incidents that took place in the Region as a whole, with Dilla being the most famous. The attack on Dilla was sourced clearly in the article (See:, , . This sourced says: "The SNM had completely destroyed the town of Dilla". So the article didn't fail to meet to meet WP:N at all. The title of the article could be discussed in the talk pages. The sources are very clear to see. MustafaO (talk) 01:19, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I have to suspect bias is at play here, I am the starter of the page Dilla Massacre, and this user Koodbuur, the same user nominating the article for deletion , was banned for 72 hours previously by engaging in an edit war as seen here Link 1 , and failed in an unsuccessful counter claim against myself. Koodbuur, now this user is requesting the article to be deleted. I do suspect that this deletion claim, is simply a tit for tat for those previous events. Koodbuur alleges the page should be deleted, but multiple sources indicate the Dilla Massacre and the events leading up to it, were a reality. The Dilla Massacre was an event that occurred on February 4th 1991, but the events leading up to it is crucial to the growth of the page, and provides context. Also, sources listed on the Dilla Massacre page, sources seen here and quoted above, dealing with the Somali national movement, and how it had partial foreign funding and assistance was also posted on the page Somali National Movement, and also removed by Koodbuur, observe here Link 2,  Koodbuur was also reported for POV Pushing as seen here by another user during another separate incident. Link 3 . In my opinion, there is no coincidence Koodbuur wants to delete a page with cited sources he does not agree with, especially after being banned for 72 hours regarding said page. This source  'https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ad8e24.html' states, "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region"  and  mentioned an ethnic cleansing against the Gadabursi in the Awdal area. This source 1, Which is from a book called "Voice and Power" written by R. J. Hayward and ‎I. M. Lewis, that "The major town of the Rer Mohamoud Nur, Dila, was thoroughly destroyed by the SNM and still lies in ruins, their rural and urban property has been almost entirely plundered by the SNM apparently to avenge the past fierce resistance put up by the Rer Nur in general." Supporting the point that the destruction of the town of Dilla was clan based. Another source indicating the existence of the Dilla Massacre here, was also removed. This source 3, which provided background to the event, was removed, it stated "The civil war raging on in the north is between the SNM Isaks against the Gadabursi in the northwest regions". That source is from 1989. This news article 4 states the existence of a massacre and destruction of the town of Dilla, in the entirety of the article. Multiple news articles mention it as well, 5, The evidence is overwhelming. The page is still under development, and more sources are continuing to be added gradually, but for Koodbuur to nominate it for deletion, after not responding to the talk page for months, as seen here Link 4, shows me there might be other motives involved.  Aqooni (talk) 05:19, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep and possibly rename. There is ample evidence of a series of violent incidents in the time frame laid out that have received more than sufficient coverage to ring the WP:N bell. That said, there are issues. At times the language sounds unencyclopedic and I get a sense that this may not be NPOV. It really needs to be reviewed by one or more editors familiar with the issues and history of that part of the world who can fix any POV issues and possibly add some background for those unfamiliar. I am also concerned about motivations in the article and possibly here in the AfD. Bottom line... there are problems, but the subject looks notable to me and thus WP:NOTCLEANUP would apply. I am going to throw up some tags on the page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:59, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ad Orientem, will be working on cleaning up the page in the next few days. Thanks for the tags. MustafaO (talk) 05:19, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The page does touch upon with the genocidal oppression the Gadabursi community faced within a certain time frame within Somalia, it provides context to the background of the Dilla Massacre, a name change discussion is perfectly reasonable to encompass that and more events, but complete deletion I feel is out of order. Aqooni (talk) 05:25, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * the article is based on neologism that not a single published reputable source discusses, thus fails GNG. Some sources do describe a battle that took place in Dilla between pro government and anti government forces, but it was one of innumerable confrontations during the Somali civil war. If reputable published sources do not support the massacre narrative, then the article should be deleted and relevant battle information could be merged into the Somali civil war article. I do agree that it also falls short of NPOV. At best its a synthesis of mostly non reputable sources to push the massacre narrative, and at worst its original research. --Kzl55 (talk) 07:19, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. Seeing as citations used do not support nor even name the "Dilla massacre" event discussed by article. No credible results for this pretty much anywhere, be it [Google], Google books, news, or scholar. If scholarly published sources do not discuss it then the subject does not warrant a standalone article per guidelines. There is also a number of questionable sources used that do not fit reliable sources guidelines. Ciiseciise007 (talk) 19:05, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep, disputes about the title of the article can be debated. The sources are overwhelming as pointed out by @Ad Orientem. Those debates could be held in the talk pages. There is clearly no need for deletion seeing as there are over 30 published works that speak about these incidents. There are many sources that mention the massacre:


 * This source 'https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ad8e24.html' states, "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region"  and  mentioned an ethnic cleansing against the Gadabursi in the Awdal area. This source 1, Which is from a book called "Voice and Power" written by R. J. Hayward and ‎I. M. Lewis, that "The major town of the Rer Mohamoud Nur, Dila, was thoroughly destroyed by the SNM and still lies in ruins, their rural and urban property has been almost entirely plundered by the SNM apparently to avenge the past fierce resistance put up by the Rer Nur in general." Supporting the point that the destruction of the town of Dilla was clan based. Another source indicating the existence of the Dilla Massacre here, was also removed. This source 3 also mentions this massacre aswell. There is no warrant for deletion. The details about the name of the incidents could be discussed in the talk pages. MustafaO (talk) 21:54, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. The subject is not notable enough to warrant an article, this can easily be seen through searching scholarly sources. Not a single scholarly source discusses a Dilla massacre. Coverage of individual battles is better suited in the main civil war article.XKeyse (talk) 18:24, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You clearly ignored over 30 different scholarly sources for these events. See: (The Dilla Massacre page has used over 30 different published academic sources.
 * The sources are listed here: See:, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , .) This source 'https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ad8e24.html' states, "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region"  and  mentioned an ethnic cleansing against the Gadabursi in the Awdal area. This source 1, Which is from a book called "Voice and Power" written by R. J. Hayward and ‎I. M. Lewis, that "The major town of the Rer Mohamoud Nur, Dila, was thoroughly destroyed by the SNM and still lies in ruins, their rural and urban property has been almost entirely plundered by the SNM apparently to avenge the past fierce resistance put up by the Rer Nur in general." The evidence is overwhelming. Therefore there is no need for deletion. MustafaO (talk) 23:39, 17 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep This article, quoting from this opening statement says "The Dilla Massacre, was a series of events that spanned from January 1991 to March 1991, perpetrated by members of the Somali National Movement (SNM) rebel group, against the Gadabuursi clan. The most violent episode was on February 4, 1991 in Dilla, a town in Awdal". The question opposing editors are asking is "Did a violent killing of civilians occur in Dilla?" The sources say YES here is one for example, . Were there a series of events perpetuated by the Somali National Movement to oppress the Gadabursi tribe in Somalia? The sources say YES. Perhaps the name of the article should be changed, but none of these opposing editors utilized the talk page in order to discuss such a change, the only one who did, did not respond back to the talk page for months, the user Koodbuur, who did not reply yet to my response here on my decision to vote to keep this page. There are enough sources to prove the opening statement of this article, but I vote to keep the change and utilize the talk page to discuss a name change. The main argument against the page is the name of the article, therefore a name change discussion is what this page needs, not a deletion discussion. I will providing more sources to contribute to the growth of this page, and within this deletion discussion. As of now, no other editor apart from MustafaO (talk), utilized the talk page to discuss these matters. Aqooni (talk) 21:19, 18 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment: The number of sources cited is not as important as the quality of said sources, and what they actually say about the subject (i.e. is it significant coverage or just passing mentions). This article was nominated for deletion because no published scholarly sources discuss a "Dilla massacre". With regards to the 34 sources listed above, a closer inspection reveals that they add little to the support the notability of the article. Within the 34 citations there are a number of dead 404 links, and sites that can not be considered reliable sources by Wikipedia. In order to assess the notability of the event, coverage as well as quality of sources must be considered. Going over the listed sources, I see the following:
 * Citation 1 discusses the town of Dilla being destroyed, but no mention of a massacre or any civilian killings
 * Citation 2 indicates that it is not a UNHCR document. The citations used to claim ethnic cleansing in the document are not readily accessible online , thus failing to meet verifiability guidelines as per WP:V.
 * Citation 3 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 4 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 5 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 6 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 7 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 8 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 9 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 10 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 11 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 12 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 13 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 14 and 15 (same reference) does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 16 does not make any reference to Dilla
 * Citation 17 discusses armed combatants being killed in Borama, but no results found when searching for “Dilla Massacre”
 * Citation 18 describes in German battle between SNM and clan militias. Explicitly states that mass killings or assassinations did not happen.
 * Citation 19 does not show any results for "Dilla massacre" or the town Dilla.
 * Citation 20 does not mention "Dilla massacre" or the town Dilla.
 * Citation 21 is not a reputable source, also a dead link.
 * Citation 22 is the same citation as Citation 1.
 * Citation 23 does not mention "Dilla massacre". Instead discusses a battle between SNM and 26th Brigade of Somali army in the town of Dilla in the PDF document
 * Citation 24 is not a reputable source, also a dead link
 * Citation 25 is not a reputable source
 * Citation 26 does not mention "Dilla massacre" . Mentions a clash between SNM and militia belonging to Gadabursi.
 * Citation 27 is the same source as citation 19.
 * Citation 28 is not a reputable source.
 * Citation 29 is the same source as citation 19. No mention of “Dilla Massacre”
 * Citation 30 mentions destruction in Dila, but nothing about a massacre.
 * Citation 31 mentions a clash between Gadabursi militia and SNM in Dilla, but nothing about a massacre.
 * Citation 32 is the same source as citation 20.
 * Citation 33 mentions fighting between Gadabursi militia and SNM in Dilla, but nothing about a massacre.
 * Citation 34 does not mention "Dilla massacre" or the town Dilla

As shown in the citations above, this article warrants deletion as it fails to meet WP:N as "Dilla Massacre" is not mentioned in reputable sources. At best, a few of the sources discuss fighting between the SNM and Gadabursi militia in Dilla. These sources do not go into great detail and only discuss the fighting that occurred in Dilla in passing, thus also failing to meet WP:DEPTH. As well, many of the citations used are not reputable. Koodbuur (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. No sources cited actually name a massacre in Dilla, but only discuss violence which was happening across Somalia at that time as covered in the Somali Civil War article. As well the citations used are not credible (e.g. http://awdalpress.com/, http://mareeg.com/). SandMan25 (talk) 16:31, 19 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.