Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dilla Massacre (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Somali Civil War. – bradv  🍁  04:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Dilla Massacre
AfDs for this article: 
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Following a previous AfD where no consensus was reached due to low community participation, the article continues to fail WP:N guidelines. The citations used are either not reliable (e.g. awdalpress.com, mareeg.com), or do not mention a massacre occurring in Dilla at all. This appears to be a case of citation overkill as per WP:REFBOMB where the goal is to add as many footnotes to the article irrespective of whether they actually support substantive or noteworthy content about the topic. Below is an inspection of all 41 listed citations used in the article, in each instance the source either mentions a clash between two militia in passing, or actually mentions nothing about a massacre or the town of Dilla at all, sometimes non-reliable sources are passed off as reliable:
 * Citation 1 passing mention of the town of Dilla being destroyed, but no mention of a massacre or any civilian killings
 * Citation 2 passing mention a village by the name of Dilla being destroyed, but no mention of a massacre or any civilian killings
 * Citation 3 indicates that it is not a UNHCR document. The citations used to claim ethnic cleansing in the document are not readily accessible , thus failing to meet verifiability guidelines as per WP:V.
 * Citation 4 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla at all
 * Citation 5 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 6 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 7 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 8 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 9 does not mention “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 10 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 11 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 12 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 13 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 14 does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 15 and 16 (same reference) does not show any results when searching for “Dilla Massacre” or the town Dilla
 * Citation 17 does not make any reference to Dilla
 * Citation 18 discusses armed combatants being killed in Borama, but no results found when searching for “Dilla Massacre”
 * Citation 19 describes in German battle between SNM and clan militias. Explicitly states that mass killings or assassinations did not happen.
 * Citation 20 describes the Barre regime targeting the people of Dilla along with other towns & villages in Somaliland, not the SNM as this article contends
 * Citation 21 does not show any results for “Dilla massacre”
 * Citation 22 describes an SNM military victory in Dilla, but no mention of a massacre in the town
 * Citation 23 does not show any results for "Dilla massacre" or the town Dilla.
 * Citation 24 does not mention "Dilla massacre" or the town Dilla.
 * Citation 25 is not a reliable source, also a dead link.
 * Citation 26 is the same citation as Citation 2.
 * Citation 27 does not mention "Dilla massacre". Instead discusses a battle between SNM and 26th Brigade of Somali army in the town of Dilla.
 * Citation 28 is not a reliable source,
 * Citation 29 is not a reliable source
 * Citation 30 does not mention "Dilla massacre" . Mentions a clash between SNM and militia belonging to Gadabursi.
 * Citations 31 and 32 are the same source as citation 23.
 * Citation 33 is not a reliable source.
 * Citation 34 is the same source as citation 23. No mention of “Dilla Massacre”
 * Citation 35 is the same source as citation 1
 * Citation 36 is the same source as citation 3
 * Citation 37 is the same source as citation 1
 * Citation 38 mentions a clash between Gadabursi militia and SNM in Dilla, but nothing about a massacre.
 * Citation 39 is the same source as citation 24.
 * Citation 40 mentions fighting between Gadabursi militia and SNM in Dilla, but nothing about a massacre.
 * Citation 41 does not mention of "Dilla massacre" or the town Dilla

As shown above, none of the reputable sources cited mention a "Dilla Massacre". It appears citations are only added to give the appearance of a well sourced article.

At best, a few of the sources discuss a clash between two militia at a town called Dilla, but not to any detail to constitute a notable event warranting a Wikipedia article per WP:N and WP:DEPTH. Many of the citations used are not reputable and fail WP:R. It is also unfortunate that tags listed in the article were removed by "owner" editor, violating WP:DETAG. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. Koodbuur (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Votes

 * Delete*Merge (Somali Civil War), blatant ref bombing. You almost could have just done a G11 (or whatever) deletion request instead of the AfD. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:32, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge with Somali Civil War. There are numerous sources that state a battle/massacre/event occured at Dilla, but there is not enough information in reliable sources about what happened during that event. Therefore the article should be merged, rather than deleted. MistyGraceWhite (talk) 03:41, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge as per above. SerTanmay (talk)
 * Delete. These citations used in this article do not assert or even support the name "Dilla massacre" which this article is aiming to create. No credible results for this anywhere, be it Google, Google books, news, or scholar. So if there are no scholarly or published sources that discuss “Dilla massacare” a single article cannot be used to claim a massace took place. Plus most of these sources have either expired, deleted or are non existent.Ciiseciise007 (talk) 09:26, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Merge a neutral summary to (Somali Civil War). It blatantly fails WP:GNG which explains the ref-bombing. The subject is not notable enough per Wikipedia guidelines and what we have appears to be synthesis of mostly non reputable sources culminating in neologism (WP:NEO) not stated by any published reputable source, and so also fails WP:OR. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:31, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * KeepThe sources in the article include several references which allude to the massacre taking place. Amongst the sources:
 * 1) R.J Hayward and I.M. Lewis (2005) both state that Dilla was destroyed and plundered by the SNM as an act of revenge on the Reer Nuur subclan of the Gadabuursi (See: ):

"'The major town of the Rer Mohamoud Nur, Dila, was thoroughly destroyed by the SNM and still lies in ruin, their rural and urban property has been almost entirely plundered by the SNM apparently to avenge the past fierce resistance put up by this group in particular and the Rer Nur in general, who occupy the buffer zone between the Isaq and Gadabursi.'"


 * 2) Another source in the article clearly states that there was a massacre in the Borama Region. The town of Dilla was under the Borama district which is why the name 'Borama' is mentioned specifically (See: |title=Refworld):

"'Armed conflict also occurred which opposed the Gadabursi and the Issaq. In February 1991, 'ethnic cleansing' by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town.'"


 * 3) Another source in the article clearly states that the Somali Gadabursi civilian community was specifically targeted to settle old scores, hence the massacre:
 * The assault against the Reer Nuur and other Gadabursi, by the SNM, was described as a way of "settling old scores".(See: )


 * 4) Another source clearly states that the Gadabursi were assaulted and pillaged the Borama region by the SNM (See: |title=Refworld):

"'The SNM assaulted and pillaged Borama, causing about 80,000 people to flee to Ethiopia'."
 * (See: |title=Refworld)


 * The title of the article is a reflection of the incidents that took place in the Region as a whole, with Dilla being the most famous. The attack on Dilla was sourced clearly in the article (See:, , . This sourced says: "The SNM had completely destroyed the town of Dilla". So the article didn't fail to meet to meet WP:N at all. The title of the article could be discussed in the talk pages. The sources are very clear to see. Therefore the article should not be deleted. Instead the talk pages should be used to discuss name changes for the article. But thee is no justification for deletion.
 * Aqooni (talk) 12:43, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep The nomination for deletion was already rejected (see: ). The result was no consensus and possibly a name change by User:JGHowes on the 22nd October 2019.


 * Having said that there are enough sources for this page not to warrant deletion. Possibly a name change and a cleanup of some sources. The main source clearly states that ethnic cleansing took place:
 * "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."(See: |title=Refworld) This reference is present in the article. This article shouldn't be discussed in a deletion page, but in the talk pages.
 * These sources, and the rest refer to the backdrop and the conditions which allowed the massacre to take place.


 * This reference: states:
 * Citation 370 states: "'In early August 1990, for example, the SNM infiltrated the Gadabursi town of Boroma, which resulted in 200 dead and 5,000 displaced persons (Compagnon 1990:266; Interview 141) and also attacked the Warsangeli settlement of Hadaftimo in eastern Sanaag, which produced further streams of refugees (Bradbury 2008:78). See also the incidences in the settlements of Dilla, Aynabo, and Erigavo.'"


 * If anything, there should be a discussion for a possible name. Most of the references used in the article are valid.
 * MustafaO (talk) 13:06, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Citations 1 & 2 doesn't contradict the other references that state a massacre took place. It states clearly the destruction of a civilian town named Dilla which obviously included hundreds of innocent civilans (See: ) and
 * Citations 4 - 18 is an issue of mainly reference accessibility in a few articles and has nothing to do with the name Dilla not being found which is irrelevant because many refer to the incidents that took place in the Awdal Region and the Borama district in particular and go under different topic titles, others show a historical backdrop to the massacre. A possible name change can be warranted here.
 * Citation 19 does NOT mention a massacre didn't take place
 * Citation 20 clearly mentions a massacre (which you conveniently ignored): "In early August 1990, for example, the SNM infiltrated the Gadabursi town of Boroma, which resulted in 200 dead and 5,000 displaced persons" (Compagnon 1990:266; Interview 141) and also attacked the Warsangeli settlement of Hadaftimo in eastern Sanaag, which produced further streams of refugees
 * (Bradbury 2008:78). See also the incidences in the settlements of Dilla, Aynabo, and Erigavo. For a detailed study on the war’s effect on settlement patterns in Erigavo, see Yusuf (2010).
 * Citations 23 and 24 is an issue of mainly reference accessibility that requires editors to clean up.
 * Citations 28 and 29 are newspaper articles and therefore unwarranted.
 * Citation 30 mentions the destruction and massacre of Dilla which is a civilian town and looting of Borama.
 * Citation 38 mentions destruction of a civilian town with the residents in the town.
 * The rest of your citations are repeats.
 * Some of your ignored citations include:
 * You ignored this source in the article: "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."(See: |title=Refworld) This reference is present in the article.
 * which states: "In early August 1990, for example, the SNM infiltrated the Gadabursi town of Boroma, which resulted in 200 dead and 5,000 displaced persons"
 * Deletion is clearly unwarranted as there is overwhelming evidence to suggest the massacre took place. Possibly a name change can be discussed.
 * MustafaO (talk) 13:49, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete as discussed above, the citations used in the article do not mention a massacre in Dilla. As mentioned by other editors, there is no source that explicitly discuss a massacre in Dilla. Xisaabiye (talk) 14:35, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What about the massacre in Borama region/district, which would also include Dilla?
 * "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."(See: |title=Refworld)
 * Your contention is about a name change. That could be discussed but it doesn't warrant a deletion of the article.
 * Aqooni (talk) 15:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep — I would support a name change which is a different argument altogether but the topic itself is notable. Here is a book on the subject by historian Prof. Lidwien Kapteijns, published by University of Pennsylvania Press; along with other sources which I have been able to find on Googlebooks - ( by Michael Keating of UN,  and Matt Waldman - adviser to the UN Special Representative for Somalia, published by Oxford University Press) ; ( by Marleen Renders, Ph.D., Political Scientist from Ghent University, published by BRILL) ; ( a slight passing for this one I must admit but the article passes GNG). I note that, just because sources are not available online does not mean a topic is not notable. This is especially true for some topics relating to Africa—mainly due to Google's own processes (especially an old topic like this). Senegambianamestudy (talk) 18:32, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * While the topic of Somali civil war has plenty of sources and is indeed notable, the topic of a massacre in Dilla isnt and falls short of WP:GNG. For instance, the first source you've included (Lidwien Kapteijns) does not mention Dilla at all or any massacres there. The same applies for the other citations; they mention a clash between two militia at a town called Dilla, but there is no mention of a massacre. Additionally all these mentions are single-sentence, in passing, and would still fall short of Wikipedia's notability guidelines, i.e. significant in-depth coverage in reliable sources. I think that is the issue, not the name. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - Ample evidence provided above points to the article not clearing the basic notability rules of Wikipedia. As such should be deleted. Aspects of the battle between the two militia can be included in the main Somali civil war article, but it has to be supported by reliable sources.Kangdomkome (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete, possible Merge with (Somali Civil War). Though reliable sources do not support a stand alone article about a massacre involving civilians, sources indicate some fighting to have taken place. It would be appropriate to merge into the Somali Civil War article as a battle between the SNM and Gadabursi militia. Jacob300 (talk) 21:41, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 *  Keep  [strikethrough double voting, see below], the same arguments presented today, were debunked in the last nomination for deletion. Users here did not utilize talk page to raise the same concerns as last, but are merely pushing for deletion. There was armed conflict against civilians in Dilla as proven by the multiple sources listed above, perhaps a name change is needed but outright deletion is clearly baseless. Aqooni (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You've already voted above, I've put a strikethrough this second vote of yours, if you would like to restore it please remove the vote above as editors vote only once on any given AfD. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete/merge The Somali civil war is full of small scale skirmishes between rebels and government forces. This one in particular is not supported by reliable sources per above comments. Deletion and a small summary in the Somali Civil War article seems like the most appropriate way to go. Madarkis (talk) 00:58, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. Since this proposal was started, a user has added several more sources to this page. Also, a merge is unreasonable because after January 1991, the civil war phase of the north was over.Haadmahanjuryt6 (talk) 18:02, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete or Merge to Somali Civil War. As discussed above, notability is certainly a glaring issue as well as use of non-reliable sources. Instances of clashes that were part of the Somali Civil War are better covered in that article so merging a brief description there would also do. SandMan25 (talk) 03:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, xinbenlv  Talk, Remember to "ping" me 05:24, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge to Somali Civil War - At a glance, tbis looks like a well-documented and well-structured article on a major encyclopedia-worthy event. For the forest of footnotes, let's take a look at the central assertion and its documentation. "Between January and March 1991, the SNM enacted various killings against members of the Gadabursi tribe and anyone they deemed as supporters of Siad Barre."[30] This is footnoted to a periodical, Africa Events, for a whole year, without a single proper page reference. Now I am not an Africa expert, but at this point you can mark me in the highly dubious camp that there was a single event called the "Dilla Massacre." I am inclined to heed the analysis of the nominator on this matter. What is good in this article — and there is good — needs to be merged into an NPOV title. Carrite (talk) 13:58, 23 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge to Somali Civil War. Having examined sources presented so far, it appears that fighting is presented in a limited number of sources, and the subject isn't notable to warrant a standalone article. Coverage of the fighting is better suited in the context of the overall Somali Civil War article. Burco18 (talk) 21:17, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Comments

 * Comment: After reading the votes and their justification, while I do believe this event is not notable enough to warrant a standalone article, I do see merit of it being discussed in the Somali Civil War page. While this article is bombarded with citations that are either unreliable or do not mention a massacre in Dilla, there are a few citations that discuss fighting between the SNM and Gadabursi militia in passing. This could be mentioned in the section of the Somali Civil War that discusses the fall of the Barre regime.


 * When examining the eight citations that have been added during the course of this AfD, the citations added do not mention Dilla or a massacre occurring:
 * First citation added does not mention a massacre occurring in Dilla.
 * Second citation added does not mention Dilla or a massacre occurring there.
 * The following six citations added also do not mention Dilla or a massacre occurring there.


 * This appears to be continued citation overkill as per WP:REFBOMB, where citations that do not mention anything about a massacre are now being added in a last ditch attempt to establish notability. These added citations would be better suited in the Somali Civil War as both discuss that topic, but provide no information about a massacre in Dilla. Koodbuur (talk) 23:57, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply
 * The citations mentions acts which many would define as war crimes. Your whole argument in this entire nomination rests on the name of the article which could quite easily be changed.
 * The citations show clear war crimes against a civilian population: shows the destruction of a civilian town with the inhabitants subjected to heavy weaponry designed to kill in large numbers. User:Aqooni, I advise a name change to SNM war crimes in the Awdal Region, that would fix this. Those advocating deletion keep on reiterating "Dilla Massacre" as the main source of their contention and argument. Because there are more than enough references to state that war crimes took place, whether it was destruction of civilian towns and properties or whether it was wholesale killing.
 * These are all the sources that are needed for an article with that title:
 * 1) R.J Hayward and I.M. Lewis (2005) both state that Dilla was destroyed and plundered by the SNM as an act of revenge on the Reer Nuur subclan of the Gadabuursi (See: ):

"'The major town of the Rer Mohamoud Nur, Dila, was thoroughly destroyed by the SNM and still lies in ruin, their rural and urban property has been almost entirely plundered by the SNM apparently to avenge the past fierce resistance put up by this group in particular and the Rer Nur in general, who occupy the buffer zone between the Isaq and Gadabursi.'"
 * 2) Another source in the article clearly states that there was a massacre in the Borama Region. The town of Dilla was under the Borama district which is why the name 'Borama' is mentioned specifically (See: |title=Refworld):

"'Armed conflict also occurred which opposed the Gadabursi and the Issaq. In February 1991, 'ethnic cleansing' by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town.'"
 * 3) Another source clearly states that the Gadabursi were assaulted and pillaged the Borama region by the SNM (See: |title=Refworld):

"'The SNM assaulted and pillaged Borama, causing about 80,000 people to flee to Ethiopia'."
 * (See: |title=Refworld)
 * "In February 1991, "ethnic cleansing" by the SNM took place in the Boroma region, the main Gadabursi town."(See: |title=Refworld)
 * This reference: states:
 * Citation 370 states: "'In early August 1990, for example, the SNM infiltrated the Gadabursi town of Boroma, which resulted in 200 dead and 5,000 displaced persons (Compagnon 1990:266; Interview 141) and also attacked the Warsangeli settlement of Hadaftimo in eastern Sanaag, which produced further streams of refugees (Bradbury 2008:78). See also the incidences in the settlements of Dilla, Aynabo, and Erigavo.'"
 * MustafaO (talk) 12:03, 17 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: Please read WP:NOT. This has little to do with a name change and more to do with notability. The article simply does not meet WP:GNG, hence the ref-bombing attempt of adding citations many of which neither mention Dilla or a massacre there. The vast majority of sources cited, including the ones added above, are either not reputable or do not describe any fighting in the region. At best, a few sources cited describe a clash that happened in a village between rebels and pro government forces, the mentions are all in passing and presented as a small event in the context of Somali civil war. As such, a neutral summary may be included in the Somali Civil War article as suggested by a number of editors above. But the topic of "Dilla massacre" simply isn't notable enough to merit its own article. Wikipedia requires significant coverage in reliable sources (not single sentences mentioning it in passing) for a topic to be considered suitable for a stand-alone article per WP:GNG. Wikipedia is not a venue for raising the visibility of an issue or agenda per WP:ADVOCACY, when I say the topic is not notable enough this is simply based on presence in reliable sources. Also, please format your responses appropriately before posting and keep them brief so that its easier to follow the discussion. Kzl55 (talk) 12:58, 17 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Reply As the majority of editors suggested, a delete or a merge outcome is most suitable as the majority of these citations are either not reliable or aren't relevant to the article. A few mention only skirmishes between two militia groups and not exactly a massacre that took place. There are many similar incidents which all come under the Somali Civil War which all cannot be classed as a massacre. Therefore my original vote of delete remains but I am also open for this article to be merged with the Somali Civil War page Ciiseciise007 (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: Having read editors' input, and upon a reread of article and references, I have amended my vote above from delete to merge. Some sources do describe a small scale conflict that was part of the many confrontations between pro-government forces and rebels that happened throughout the country. A neutral summary per WP:DUE within the Somali Civil War article should be sufficient. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:33, 17 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: There are plenty of sources/references/citations to suggest a name change. There has already been many that have been correctly cited on this page. The previous nomination for deletion was already rejected (see: ). The result was no consensus and possibly a name change by User:JGHowes on the 22nd October 2019. Deletion is ridiculous. However, a name change does make sense which is why I notified User:Aqooni to take this into serious consideration.
 * MustafaO (talk) 12:17, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: A few corrections, the previous AfD was not rejected, it was closed as no consensus was achieved hence this new discussion. Another reason why this AfD was initiated was that the article was tagged as having multiple issues that needed to be resolved. These issues were not resolved, and tags were removed by the “owner” editor of the article, thus violating WP:DETAG. Deletion is not ridiculous as Wikipedia articles must clear notability criteria, and be explored in great detail in high-quality sources, which this article clearly does not. Trying to give a non-notable topic a stand-alone article is not what Wikipedia is for. As such deletion is very much warranted, as seen in the above votes by editors. A merge with of a summary into the main Somali Civil War article, as proposed by other editors, is also reasonable. Koodbuur (talk) 17:20, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: There are at least 5 solid and very strong references that have already posted on this nomination page that would perfectly correspond to SNM War crimes in the Awdal Region. It's already been posted. The previous AfD was reviewed all the arguments and mentioned a name change was suitable. There wasn't anything new or substantial that was bought in this new AfD. It was the exact same arguments and citations that were already answered. The only difference is that certain members who are invested in covering up war crimes have all participated in trying to shut down this page. However, there are plenty of references and sources to suggest that war crimes took place. It's already been mentioned here in plenty. Tags were NEVER removed. It was removed by Wikipedia administrators after the previous AfD was thrown out. There was no violation of WP:DETAG. Either way, a name change to a more a suitable title which reflects what took place is the most viable option.
 * MustafaO (talk) 16:05, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: This is not going anywhere, tags were removed per . As stated previously, and agreed by majority of editors in this discussion, notability is not met hence the delete and merger comments. Koodbuur (talk) 17:50, 19 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: as editors who have voted to merge, what would you suggest be merged into the Somali Civil War article? Koodbuur (talk) 17:53, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: There are a considerable amount of people who view that the right course of action is a name change. Most of the people that you've tagged have a history of purging the article and doing everything in their power to do remove it. A simple look into their history can vouch for that. According to Wikipedia: “If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list.” A minimum of 5 references/sources are present on this nomination page, that's more than enough for a stand alone article. The only edits required is a name change to reflect the events more accurately and a cleanup of any overkill in citations from a few sources that are irrelevant. Every contention you've raised so far was due to the name: "Dilla Massacre". You haven't been able to refute the citations in the article that prove war crimes took place in the Region (see: ), (See: |title=Refworld), (See: ), (See: ) and that many people were killed. Thats why a name change is the right course of action.
 * MustafaO (talk) 14:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Constantly covering the page with walls of text which the consensus of the community clearly does not agree with can be seen as a filibustering per WP:FILIBUSTER as it avoids the spirit of consensus. Please remove your comment as I have not addressed you, we've already had a discussion above that went nowhere. The majority of editors agree that an outright delete or a merger is appropriate and I am trying to reach consensus with the editors who have suggested a merge before closure. Repeating the same points over and over does not make them true. What you are doing is attempting to game the consensus-building process. I ask you to stop that. Koodbuur (talk) 14:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Koodbuur, as stated above, a neutral summary per WP:DUE within the Somali Civil War article should be sufficient. Just like having an article dedicated to a non-notable topic is WP:UNDUE, one has to also be mindful that this skirmish was a small-scale incident in the larger context of the Somali Civil War. Perhaps a paragraph outlining the context of government arming militia to fight rebels could be a start? --Kzl55 (talk) 15:11, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply A small summary of the battle between the SNM and Gadabursi militia in the Somali Civil War article would be sufficient Jacob300 (talk) 22:06, 20 March 2020 (UTC)


 * As mentioned above, a neutral description of the fighting and how it relates to the broader conflict would do. I would keep it simple and brief, just like it is presented in sources discussing the Somali Civil War. SandMan25 (talk) 06:08, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * As I have stated before, the Somali Civil War consisted of many small scale skirmishes between rebels & government forces throughout the country and were not exclusive to Awdal region. A brief & neutral summary in the Somali Civil war describing these skirmishes would be most appropriate. Madarkis (talk) 14:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no reason to either delete or merge this page into another page. Evidence to Keep and a name change including WP:CLEANUP is overwhelming. A look into possible WP: MEATPUPPET might also suggest some foul play where a few editors, all of the same persuasion are attempting to delete this page which violates WP:NPOV. A simple look into their history can show this. Wikipedia states: "High-profile disputes on Wikipedia often bring new editors to the site. Some individuals may promote their causes by bringing like-minded editors into the dispute, including enlisting assistance off-Wiki." This needs to be taken into serous consideration here. A rename from "Dilla Massacre" to another name reflective of the sources is valid. The only contention that has been made so far is the name of the article which isn't reflected in any of the sources due to a poor choice in titling. This can be remedied because the references mention war crimes took place in the Region. Few evidences (See: ), (See: |title=Refworld), amongst others. A complete name change and to move the article to a new title and a WP: CLEANUP remedies the entire problem.MustafaO (talk) 06:18, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please be respectful of other editors who disagree with your POV. Assume good faith per WP:AGF and cease the accusations of other editors. Perhaps read WP:CIVIL as personal attacks are entirely out of the scope of AfDs. Koodbuur (talk) 11:17, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Speaking as the one who created this article, evidence to Keep and a name change including WP:CLEANUP is the best course of action. I do recognize the problematic nature of the title. Other users have mentioned there is ample sources and citations that would support a a stand alone article that would take into consideration a more encompassing title rather than focusing on a specific incident. I am ready to assume the responsibility of changing and moving the title to reflect the sources discussed and given on this page. However, deletion or a merger is absolutely not justified given the amount of sources and references given on this page. I'm open to discussing with the editors/admins on changing the title and WP: CLEANUP as necessary.Aqooni (talk) 16:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please do not misconstrue the comments of the editors above. No one is denying the existence of a description of a clash between pro-government clan militia and rebels that was part of the Somali civil war. The reason majority of editors have recommended that it should be deleted or merged into the Somali Civil War article is that the limited reliable sources provided all discuss these events in passing. The notability clause in WP:N dictates that a subject is deemed notable if it receives significant coverage in reliable sources, passing (or insignificant) mentions does not mean a topic is notable. Koodbuur (talk) 18:38, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Nothing has really been misconstrued. The article is depicting war crimes that took place. There are multiple sources/references mentioning the destruction of a civilian town, mass killings and looting. There are quite a few sources that reflect those incidents, so it deserves a stand alone article. The number of references that are cited correctly (not including the fallacious citations that do exist that require WP: CLEANUP), meets WP:N. Therefore the article shouldn't be deleted. Aqooni (talk) 20:07, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

You are avoiding the obvious point and just repeating that some sources describe fighting that took place. That is not the problem as explained multiple times now, and by multiple editors. Notability entails significant coverage in reliable sources, what you have presented is passing description in sources. You cannot brute-force your POV through, Wikipedia is built on consensus and majority of editors agree notability is a major issue hence the delete and merge votes. Per WP:LISTEN, believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted. Koodbuur (talk) 01:31, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Those sources clearly mention there was a massacre. I don't know what sources your talking about, there are at least 5 mentioned on this nomination page alone that there were war crimes, ethnic cleansing, looting and destruction that took place. I've already exhausted the citations and blockquoted them, so no need for me to entertain the notion that I was "just repeating that some sources describe fighting that took place." Do I really need to paste it all here again? Also, Wikipedia is NOT built on majority of editors deciding whether or not an article stays or not. The Wikipedia guide to deletion clearly states: "Wikipedia is not a democracy and majority voting is not the determining factor in whether a nomination succeeds or not." []. This is clearly stated in WP:AFDDISCUSS. Having said that, I haven't forced my POV upon anyone. I strongly advocated for my article to not be deleted which is my right as an editor and the initiator of this article. I never once violated the Deletion policy. Therefore I do not accept some of your allegations and would feel that they are "distracting" from the main issues.Aqooni (talk) 21:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I would like to remind you that no one can claim ownership of articles per WP:OWN so I would advise you to stop calling this “my article”. The point was made multiple times in this discussion and you continue to avoid addressing it; per WP:GNG notability requires significant coverage in reliable sources. Aside from the blatant refbombing, where of the 49 citations added in the article you are arguing that 5 provide notability, what you have presented so far are passing descriptions; this does not aid notability per Wikipedia guidelines. I think we ought to stop here. Koodbuur (talk) 01:08, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't claim ownership of the article, the sequence of my sentence strongly suggested that what I meant was I was the creator of the article. I clearly stated that when I said here: "as an editor and the initiator of this article". Therefore, its NOT an issue per WP:OWN at all. Relating to the rest of your arguments, the sources provided in this nomination feed meets the requirements per WP:GNG clearly, there are over 5 references that mention war crimes took place. The only issue is whether or not the name of the article reflects the references, which is why I advocated for a name change. Regarding the references, that article needs a reference cleanup per WP: CLEANUP. However, I've been advocating that deletion is not the solution at all. If you wish to stop, thats fine. I am obligated to answer what I feel is incorrect information.Aqooni (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

You are now repeating your points over and over again. As I have explained multiple times, notability requires significant coverage in reliable sources. Wikipedia is not the place to correct what you feel needs correction per WP:RGW. We look objectively at whether or not there is significant coverage of any given topic is present in reliable sources such that WP:GNG is satisfied. Passing descriptions does not satisfy notability guidelines. You have failed to present in-depth discussions of the topic in reliable sources despite multiple requests. This is why I suggested we stopped as you are ignoring points addressed by other editors while continuously repeating your viewpoint in what appears to be filibustering. I understand you feel strongly about it, but what other editors are stating is that, yes some sources do mention some fighting occurring during the Somali civil war, but these passing descriptions are not "significant coverage" that merits a stand alone article. You having five citations does not address that point. Koodbuur (talk) 01:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Any repetition on my part has been a response. You've clearly on multiple occasions overstated the same points, especially that notability requires significant coverage. My response has been that this article has significant coverage minus the sources that need to be cleaned up per WP: CLEANUP. When you say "we look objectively", you're an editor and that's you're right to do so. I am also an editor and retain my right to disagree. Having said that, please respect that others will also disagree with you. I strongly disagree with your notion that the academic references and sources does not meet "significant coverage". There are 5 academically reliable sources/references that strongly suggest that my argument is worth its merit. As for your statement that it doesn't address the point. It clearly does. Wikipedia states: "“If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list.” The references and sources provided on this page has met those notability guidelines very clearly, once studied.Aqooni (talk) 22:49, 25 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.