Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dinas Affaraon


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge/redirect. I'll do the redirect, anyone wishing to undertake the merge can pull the content from the page history. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:15, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Dinas Affaraon

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So far as I can tell, this is another name for Dinas Emrys. Spence claims it's mentioned in The Black book of Carmarthen - sure, there's a Dinas mentioned there, but no Dinas Affaraon. You can read the text at. That says " There is a Dinas on the banks of the Gwrvei, near y Bont NewyS in the parish of Llan Wnda, on the road from Caer Seon in Arvon to Dinas Dinlleu, which suggests itself as the Caer Leu a Gwydion. But we must not overlook another Dinas on the banks of the Llyvni, nor the old encampment, a quarter of a mile distant, on Lleuer Farm beyond Bryn Gwydion". It is mentioned in the Mabinigion but without any association with Druidism, magic, etc, simply as a place where a swine gave a wolf to to "Brynach Wyddel, of Dinas Affaraon". Spence is a fringe writer and we can't use him to establish its authenticity. Dougweller (talk) 16:13, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This is Bard Cadarn, the maker of the Dinas Affaraon page. The fact is that the legend of "the ambrosial city", while little known and certainly subject to question, is a legend still and deserves a page to call its own. It may be nothing more than an almost forgotten story associated with Dinas Emrys, but that does not warrant its deletion. Long before I made the page I saw it on the Mythological place page, but found that no article existed for it. If anything, it made the Mythological place page more complete. A legend with little to no evidence is still a legend and deserves to be told. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk • contribs) 16:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect the title to Dinas Emrys. I can't find anything to suggest that this is anything but another name for "Dinas Emrys", and that the associations with druidry are modern fringe. The material on "Pheryllt" is a separate item; it's only connected to "Dinas Affaraon" is only found in the fringery. The Greer book doesn't even mention Dinas Affaraon in connection with the Pheryllt. I can't find any real sources that discuss Spense's claims about "Dinas Affaraon" even to dismiss them, so there's nothing to merge.--Cúchullain t/ c 21:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 00:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 00:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Then why was Dinas Affaraon on the list of Mythological places, and not Dinas Emrys? "A magical Druid city hidden among the hills of Snowdonia" was written there long before I arrived. Why put it there if you did not want a page for it? The two are separate, one is a legend the other a place. Even if nothing solid can be found, a legend it is still, and is respected by modern Druids. Let it be. It does no harm nor takes away repute from the Dinas Emrys page. I would appreciate an answer to my above questions. Why was Dinas Affaraon on the list of Mythological places, and not Dinas Emrys? Why put it there if you did not want a page for it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk • contribs) 02:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't put it there (You seem to mean me as you asked me this on my talk page).  You need to read WP:NOTABILITY as well as WP:RS. Dougweller (talk) 05:58, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I understand this, but legends may exist through oral tradition alone with no solid historical data to back them up. Such is the case of Dinas Affaraon. Also, why did you go to all the trouble editing the page if you wanted to delete it? Makes little sense it me. Once again, Dinas Affaraon and Dinas Emrys are separate, one is a legend the other a place. Even if nothing solid can be found, a legend it is still, and is respected by modern Druids. Let it be. It does no harm nor takes away repute from the Dinas Emrys page. Moreover, it violates no copyrighted material as legends belong to us all. Again, why did you go to all the trouble editing the page if you wanted to delete it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought I could fix it, but the more I worked on it the less there seemed to be. Sources turned out to mention just a Dinas with no Affaraon, or simply failed WP:RS. If there's nothing solid it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. You have to show that it meets WP:GNG. Copyright isn't an issue so far as I can see. Dougweller (talk) 14:12, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The sources would refer to both, both Affaraon and Emrys. Both include "Dinas" and both are located in Snowdonia. The Affaraon article says that another name for it is "Dinas Emrys". It is not called the "the ambrosial city" without reason, for "Emrys", roughly translated, means "ambrosia". They are the same place, in a nutshell. Both complementing the other. Classic example of what happens in the oral tradition: things get separated and blended, but the kinship may still be seen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect the title to Dinas Emrys (aka Dinas Ffaraon/Pharaon/Affaraon). This is simply Spence's neo-druidic concoction cobbled together out of snippets of (wilfully) misinterpreted references in medieval Welsh literature: it is decidedly not a genuine Welsh legend. Further proof: he writes about "the Pheryllt" as a race of druid magicians inhabiting this lost "city" (actually Middle and Old Welsh 'dinas' = 'fort' not 'city') in the mists of Snowdonia. In fact 'Fferyll(t)' ("Pheryllt") is the Middle Welsh name of the Roman poet Virgil (Vergilius). Virgil was widely held to have been a magician and prophet in medieval Europe, and was also associated with alchemy. Hence eventually fferyll became a noun meaning 'chemist' or physician' but also 'magician, alchemist'; it is the root of the modern Welsh noun fferyllfa (pharmacy) and some other related words. It seems to me that Spence looked it up in a dictionary and then let his imagination run riot! All very entertaining but it doesn't belong on Wikipedia (unless you want a new category, 'Lewis Spence's mythological fantasies'). (Enaidmawr on cy:) 88.104.82.99 (talk) 21:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

All right, here is a compromise: I will delete everything regarding Spence and leave the rest. If I must, I will remove the entire section dedicated to the "Pheryllt" as well. I will do the first now. Is that enough to satisfy you all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, it's going to leave basically nothing there. The "Fferyllt" information has no association with "Dinas Affaraon" outside of Lewis and possibly other fringe writing. As such it's pointless to keep it here. There is basically nothing that can be said about this name except that it's another name for "Dinas Emrys".--Cúchullain t/ c 20:09, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It is fine as it is, even with "Fferyllt" part gone. Leave the rest, for it gives credit to Dinas Emrys. Basically nothing is better and more than nothing, so there is no need to redirect the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * At this point none of the material is cited and no reliable sources appear forthcoming. There's no real option here but to delete.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:28, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep or merge -- I know little of the subject. What is the evidence that this is another name for Dinas Emrys?  Is that not interpretation?  If there is a single allusion to the place, it is probably best merged with the work where it is alluded to (leaving a redirect.  If there are multiple allusions or a substnatial amount of scholarly discussion, then the article should survive.  However discussion on the content should be on the talk page, not AFD.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:25, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Look at the article as it's now written after I added reliable sources. It's now made clear that "Dinas Affaraon"/"Dinas Ffaraon" is just another name for Dinas Emrys.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Cúchullain is right. Anyone with a serious interest in medieval Welsh literature will be aware that Dinas Ffaraon is just another name for Dinas Emrys. I suggest copying Cúchullain's amended text to a new section in the Dinas Emrys article and redirecting Dinas Affaraon (and Dinas Ffaraon) to it. (Enaidmawr on cy:) 88.104.80.26 (talk) 01:35, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. Could we get rid of the "considered for deletion" box now? From what my eyes can tell it is no only needed. You all have done a splendid job fixing things up, so to speak, and for that you have my thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Bard Cadarn, why is the above dated 14 Sept when you posted it last night at  23:12, 19 September 2013? Anyway, the answer is that this has to wait until it is closed. That might happen later today, it has to run 7 days normally. Dougweller (talk) 06:31, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment -- If this is the same as Dinas Emrys, then the outcome should be merge, which will leave this as a redirect. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:45, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry about the date problem; just fixed it. 7 days eh, I did not know that. Well, regardless, I will be happy when this ends. Again, you all have done a splendid job fixing things up, so to speak, so you have my thanks. By the way, I do not think it should merge unless all of the info is added to the Dinas Emrys page. Hence, add a sub-heading to it called Dinas Affaraon/Ffaraon. After all, it is important knowledge that should be included somewhere, so it must either have a page of its own or it must be included on the Dinas Emrys page. I am for the former. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bard Cadarn (talk —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.