Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dockum


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  kur  ykh   00:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Dockum

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Reason Lofzang22 (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2008 (UTC) This article is totally incoherent nonsense, from the first to the last line:

First off, there has never been a noble family called "van Dockum", and most certainly there have never been "Barons of Dockum"; the title of baron did not really exist in medieval Frisia/Netherlands.

Secondly, there were in the late middle ages, a few noblemen who were guardians/lords of a lordship Dockum, but these people all belonged to completely different and unrelated families. For example, there was a nobleman called Ofcke Riemersma (Riemersma being the surname of his family) who owned the lordship Dockum and called himself at times Ofcke van Dockum. Similarly, there was a Feijo van Dockum, who owned the lordship Dockum, but whose actual surname was Heemstra. Feijo en Ofcke were not related; they belong to two completely different families, who happened to own the lordship Dockum. So there were lords of Dockum (as in owners of a lordship, not as surname of a single family!!!), but this was a title of possession and it belonged to different families at different times. The lordship has not been in existence at least 400 if not 450 years!

Given this fact, people who were called van Dockum can impossibly be descendants of a noble family called van Dockum, because there was never such a family. Hence everything in this article is complete nonsense. It's just a collection of facts regarding different families who happen to have the toponymic surname van Dockum. Logically, they don't appear on the list I mentioned nor anywhere else.

Also, there is no such thing as "THE coat of arms of the lords van Dockum family, because the lordship was owned by different families who each had their own coat of arms. Check this website for the coat of arms of the city Dokkum [1]. On this page the origin of the coat of arms of the city Dokkum is explained; nowhere do they mention that this was the coat of the lords of Dokkum, because as I already mentionned there was never a noble family called van Dockum. The already mentioned nobleman Ofcke Riemersma (a.k.a. van Dockum) who owned the lordship Dockum, used these arms. However, Feijo Heemstra (a.k.a. van Dockum) who owned the lordship as well, never used this coat of arms, he used those of his own family, that of the Heemstra family.

Please check this excellent resource on the Frisian nobility [2], you will never find the name "van Dockum", because there was never such a family.

This article is a travesty because it wants to make people believe that people who have the toponymic surname van Dockum are descendents of a fictional noble family.
 * If the article needs to be rewritten, then rewrite it. The fact remains that Dockum is a surname and does seem to have coats of arms/family crests in different places. And isn't it probably true that those who migrated to other countries came from the town of Dokkum, even if they are not related? So there's a connection to be drawn, even if that connection is only to say that people who use these surnames in modern times are probably descended from inhabitants of the town of Dokkum. All of this needs to be sourced. I can't read all of the sources the original author of the article used, so I'm not up for it, personally. But the article needs to be written neutrally, and not with some vendetta against the articles first author, who seems to have written it in good faith and citing several sources. The vitriol isn't helping your case, in other words. I say no for deletion, yes for thoughtful and sourced rewriting. --rikker (talk) 13:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This I wrote in the talk section yesterday: "I belong to the von Dockum family and I live in Denmark and work in Sweden. I have changed the article so that it is in line with the information I got regarding my family. The family is an old European noble family and the family archives (old letters, ship log books etc.) confirm the relationship with the general von Dockum etc. Further; the family had the lordship over Dokkum, and stayed there at least during the 15th and 16th century. The family crest presented by the author is the same as the one used by us (I didn’t know however that it is the same as the town now uses…). Though it seems that the coat of arms are the same I can however not confirm the relationship with Offe van Dokkum nor the title of “Baron” which is not used by us. I have not seen a letter of introduction to a “friherrelig stand”/title of ”Freiherr”. This said, it should be remembered that a lot of historik information was lost in the WWI & WWII so I can not exclude that another part of the family rightfully uses the title “Baron” or “Freiherr”. I can however confirm that the there is only two families using the name von/van Dockum, Docka or Dock in Denmark and Sweden of which only one is related to us and the other one (which is very small) is believed to have been given the right to wear the name Docka. I also know that the family traveled to England, Scotland and USA, but I do not know anything about the Texas branch or Christopher Dock. The remaining European family members are quite few and the name should not be compared to “Smith, Jones” or any other frequently used name; in Denmark at least, no one is allowed to use the name unless we say ok.


 * I hope this clear up some questions. I do not want my last name or the history of my family used or displayed wrongfully but I do not appreciate the “tone” of some of the comments; however I do not believe that (or care if) the family still is listed as Dutch nobility but for the “history professor” it might be fun to know that not all the families of the old lords of Dokkum have died out."

Even though I concure with Lufzang that it can not be so that every person that uses the surname in the USA is related to the European family (even though they may in some way be connected to Dukkum), I think it's an interesting part of history and I aprove the use of my family name and history. It would be interesting to know the insentetive for the auther to write article (as well as for the anger Lufzang feels - he seems to be blinded by some personal rage, since he misses the true historical conections in the article. I say no for deletion but it should be clearly stated that not all the families that uses the name belong to the noble family branches.

/H. v. Dockum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.217.25 (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)  — 83.250.217.25 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

REPLY

In all honesty, do what ever you like! just don't call your family noble, since you obviously don't belong to the Danish nor the Dutch nobility, and that 's pretty much the end of it; if you want to be self-delusional about your roots, that's fine with me. and since there are several non-related families with the surname 'van Dockum', the phrase "I approve the use of my family name" sounds really funny. The page is just a colllection of nonsense.


 * Those with Wikipedia accounts, please sign your comments using four tildes: ~.


 * On another note, as far as Americans go, I am an American Dockum and am not aware of Dockums who have traced their genealogy back to Dokkum, though it is commonly believed in my family that we are descended from a group of brothers who moved to the U.S. at least 300+ years ago. I can only directly trace my ancestry to the late 18th century, before that I do not know. I am certainly not trying to claim nobility, and I think I probably fall under the category of descendants of one-time inhabitants of the town, that's all.


 * I'll also point out that among Dockum genealogists here (and there are not many), there is confusion due to the use of Dockum and Dockham as alternate spellings on censuses and other records. There are probably other groups of Dockhams who may have come from England or elsewhere who now spell their name Dockum and vice versa, and it is unclear how they are related. The largest concentration of Dockums in the U.S. these days are in the Oklahoma/Texas area and the New England/northeast area. Dockum is a very rare surname in the United States, though, completely incomparable to Smith or Jones, and so it's not unreasonable to think that most of us are related to a small number of families who emigrated, or else the number of Dockums would be much larger by today. This is all a very interesting discussion, ire of the slighted nobility notwithstanding. --rikker (talk) 09:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 14:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete Fails verifiability. This article appears to be a vanity genealogy lacking reliable sources. There could be articles about several individuals with variations on the name who have done something notable, but the whole point of the article is to assert unverified genealogical claims that all people with variants (or at least many families) with variants of the name are descended from nobility. The nominator makes a credible argument that persons claimed to be the noble ancestors were from different actual families (not named "Dockum" or its variants.). Edison (talk) 15:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU, EDISON;i couldn't have formulated it better. User:Lofzang22 —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC).
 * Delete as per Edison. Edward321 (talk) 00:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Home-made geneology. Did I mention I'm next in line to the throne? I respect that people are contributing this information in good faith, but this is an encyclopedia for notable and reliable information. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

No to deletion - I have come across a noble family named von Dockum from Preussen and it would be fun to see how this article develops... --- Ari from Poland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.105.58.30 (talk) 11:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

DELETE Ari, saying that you "came across a noble family von Dockum" is insufficient; solid references are needed. the preposition "von" does not give any indication whether a family is noble or not. Also, if there were such a family from Prussia, there is no proof that they are descendants of the medieval lords of Dokkum. Lofzang 22 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lofzang22 (talk • contribs) 13:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Delete most of these statements concering Dutch van Dockums are incorrect. User:StevBeltman


 * So is this article worth saving if it's edited back heavily? Still seems like there's something worth saving here, even if it's all heavily qualified. Many surnames have a page like this, it seems. Dockum = surname, Dockums are spread throughout Europe, connection to Dokkum town, modern things named Dockum (fossils, towns). --rikker (talk) 02:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.