Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dominic Toretto (Character)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Strong arguments on both sides, but no clear consensus. Owen&times; &#9742;  09:08, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Dominic Toretto (Character)

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Unreferenced article about a minor character in film series, no evidence of notabilty, a redirect by another editor has been reverted. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  -- Jezhotwells (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  -- Jezhotwells (talk) 21:03, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete The character is not particularly notable and there's not enough material to warrant an individual article. Merge back into the list of characters article for the franchise.  Millahnna (talk) 10:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete The fictional character does not meet the general notability guideline. All sources that I found with a search engine test, are from unreliable sources or plot description of the series, but none cover the character with real world perspective or with critical commentary about the character to warrant an article about it. The article itself is a plot-only description of a fictional work without real-world context that lacks references independent of the subject from reliable third-party sources to presume notability. Jfgslo (talk) 02:54, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep The character is the major lead in on-going film series. The newest film is just set for release this week, and so more details about the character will come to light, and so may be added to by contributors. The character is also set to appear in the 6th film in the series. These two new appearances may lead to more discussions of the character in other media, and the reasons for his popularity / influence. I suggest keeping this article, marking it as a stub, and see what will happen over the next few months. The Yeti (talk) 13:47, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: What is at issue here is whether the article meets the notability guidelines. The subject has been a character in a number of films and apparently there are more to come, but articles are not kept because thee may be indications of notability in the future. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is barely a month old, and as I said, the film franchise has its newest release just this very week. Give people a chance to add things. What's the goddam hurry to delete ? The Yeti (talk) 22:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue is whether there is any evidence of notability for the subject, so far with four films released there is none, so i suggest at the very least a merge with The Fast and the Furious (film series) as there may be some material, which if referenced to reliable sources may be useful. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep

( I place some weight on the fact that this article has been in substantial form for over two years (April 20, 2009), and contributed by over a dozen named (and over a dozen unnamed) Wikipedia editors. I take that as strong evidence that the Wikipedia community feels there should be an article. )

The notability criteria is:

"If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources   that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the    inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list."

I searched for sources prior to 2011, since the Web is a bit flooded with marketing for the current movie.

These pages have Dominic Toretto as the main topic:
 * http://fastandfurious.wikia.com/wiki/Dominic_Toretto
 * http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0004171/
 * http://www.screened.com/dominic-toretto/15-175

More than trivial mention, but not the main topic: Macchess (talk) 03:01, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.themoviespoiler.com/Spoilers/fastfurious.html
 * http://www.mooviees.com/1828/quotes
 * http://www.craigerscinemacorner.com/Reviews/fast_and_furious.htm
 * http://www.cisci.net/movies/film_331/scene_0/Fast_and_Furious_1.pdf
 * http://www.dnaindia.com/entertainment/review_fast-and-furious-4-is-faster-and-more-furious_1244842
 * Comment The first three pages are all user edited and likely wouldn't be considered reliable sources (I know we can sometimes use a awikia if it has a long history of being stable like Memory Alpha). It looks like the next two sources in your list are going to have the same problem.  I'm unfamiliar with (and therefore unsure of) the Craig's  Corner and DNA India sites.  The PDF is actually pretty interesting but I don't know what we could use it for beyond what it actually is: a debunking of a the action sequences based on science.  Millahnna (talk) 04:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC).
 * Response:
 * Definition of Secondary Sources I'm new to deletion discussions - just so I'm clear on the rules of engagement here - my understanding is that for information on this character, the primary sources are the movies the character has occurred in, plus any marketing material he appears in (dolls, posters, video games, etc.). It isn't kosher for a Wikipedia editor to add content to this article based on their direct viewing of that material (no original research). Reviews of the movie, however, are secondary sources, and if the reviewer can be shown to be reliable, reliable secondary sources.
 * Reliability of Secondary Sources While two of the examples of secondary sources I provide are from wikis, it seems that wiki material can be regarded as reliable if the page is stable (longevity) and is the result of multiple editors (the Delphi Method approach). ( While the Delphi Method assumes the result to be the consensus of multiple experts, when the topic in question is a fictional character in a movie, I submit that anyone who watched the movie at least qualifies as a direct witness.)
 * The dnaindia entry is a movie review from a solid newspaper - see DNAIndia entry at Wikipedia, so it is reliable, yes?
 * Craig's Corner looks reliable to me. The reviews are all by Craig Koban, but he has been doing these since 2004, and he has put an insane amount of work into it. If he wasn't an expert when he started, he should be by now. Even five years ago, this seemed to be a huge, quality site. See [http://replay.web.archive.org/20060720075123/http://www.craigerscinemacorner.com/archives.htm
 * The fastandfurious.wikia meets my suggested reliability tests of longevity (substantive form since August 24, 2009), and multiple edits over that time (three named editors and four unnamed - see History of Dominic Toretto Page at fastandfurious.wikia.com).
 * The IBDB article meets my suggested reliability tests of longevity (substantive form since 2007) Dominic Toretto page on IMDB on October 2007 and multiple updates by editors.
 * Summary: While the page Dominic_Toretto_(Character) in its current form has issues, it seems to me that it meets the Notability editorial guidelines, which say that, a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article unless it falls under What_Wikipedia_is_not. Speaking for myself as a user of Wikipedia (rather than an editor) I blundered into this discussion because I'd seen the latest movie, and I wanted to understand the background of the character without having to see the previous films. I found the article useful as a user, and was distressed to see it proposed for deletion. My vote is that the page be allowed to stand, but that we put some effort into providing the references, and fixing other issues such as PLOT Macchess (talk) 20:50, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 00:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. Character has minimal third-party sources discussing any impact on popular culture or other real-world impact. While we're at it, the List of The Fast and the Furious characters and the other character pages may be worthy of deletion as well. Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete I agree he is notable in that he has appeared across several films but all of the information here is just plot regurgitation which itself is spread across each film's individual article and THEN on the franchise page itself. Unless external sources can be identified, i.e. character conception and/or reception, I don't think this should stay.  The same can be said for Brian O'Conner which has 4 sources, three of them IMDB, Mia Toretto, 1 source, IMDB and Leticia Ortiz,  three sources, one IMDB. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 11:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Keep. The character has been played by Vin Diesel. Google claims a million hits for Dominic Toretto. How does this not meet WP:GNG.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 01:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Google claims half a million and a quick glance at the first 6 pages has the links showing either articles here, Fast and the Furious Wikia, reviews of the cars, youtube video clips of the film, facebook profiles and news on the film. No notable, independent information on the character that warrants him an article rather than an entry on the List of Fast and Furious characters.  Checking the next 4 pages you've got IMDB links, personal angel fire sites and still nothing of use.  I can probably find more information on Randy Meeks and he's been in less films. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 13:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * '''Comment: The significant coverage in the reliable sources listed below shows that "Dominic Toretto (Character) " satifies WP:GNG, hence should not be deleted.


 * I believe that the sources listed below meet WP:RS, and are suffice to show that this character meets the WP:GNG requirement. Therefore, I argue that this article should not be deleted, and if deleted, should be replaced, since: "A topic is presumed to merit an article if it meets the general notability guideline below, and is not excluded under What Wikipedia is not." (WP:NOTE)


 * Please note that I am not asserting that the article in its current form meets all Wikipedia's standards, but that is not the question here. We are discussing whether the very existence of this article is acceptable and the criteria for that is WP:GNG. "Notability requires only the existence of suitable reliable sources, not their immediate citation."WP:NRVE. Also, for those concerned that it may be difficult to find enough reliable, independent, secondary source material to validate every fact in a thorough article, note that "Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article WP:N. Once notability has been established, WP: Manual of Style (writing about fiction) permits referencing the primary sources themselves (the films) for factual details if necessary, and under Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves, sources that are not clearly independent, such as the book: "The Fast and the Furious: The Official Car Guide", by Chris Palmer, 2006, published by MotorBooks International ISBN 9780760325681 (I didn't list this for notability, since the "Official" imprimatur implied some dependence, but there's a lot of Dominic Toretto in it.)


 * The 1,000,000+ hits in Google I get when I search for the quoted string: "Dominic Toretto" suggests notability (fame, popularity), but is not sufficient evidence by itself. "Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things like fame, importance, or popularity—although those may enhance the acceptability of a subject that meets the guidelines explained below."WP:NOTE


 * The essential WP:GNG test is whether there is significant coverage in reliable sources (WP:RS) that are independent of the subject. The vast majority of the 1,000,000 hits above are not reliable sources in the WP:RS sense.


 * The minimum number of WP:RS to meet the WP:GNG threshold is only the number to verify enough content for a non-stub article, but at least two are expected:
 * (1) WP:GNG: "The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources.  Multiple sources are generally expected."
 * (2) Reinforced here: Third Party Sources: How To Meet the Requirement
 * -"At least two third-party sources should cover the subject"
 * -"These reliable third-party sources should verify enough facts to write a non-stub article about the subject, including a statement explaining its significance."


 * I've grouped the information from any single author or organization to count as a single source, since: "[3] Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability." (WP:GNG)


 * Source #1: Roger Ebert's Movie Reviews


 * Roger Ebert is a well-known American film critic who was the first film critic to win a Pulitzer Prize for Criticism. His reviews of "The Fast and the Furious" and "Fast & Furious", contain enough information on Dominic Toretto to make a good start to an article, and were republished over time. His 2001 Review of "The Fast and the Furious" in the Chicago Sun-Times also provides evidence of long term interest, since it appears in three of his annual "Robert Ebert's Movie Yearbook"s: [|2002 2002 REMVYB], 2003 REMVYB, [|2004 2004 REMYB]. His 2009 Review of "Fast & Furious" in the Chicago Sun-Times also appears in his Roger Ebert's Movie Yearbook 2010


 * Source #2: Discussion of Dominic Toretto in the book Manhood in Hollywood from Bush to Bush, by David Greven, University of Texas Press, 2009, ISBN 9780292719873
 * The coverage here is not lengthy (about 7 lines) but is a respectable scholarly WP:RS that appeared eight years after the movie (indicating long term interest), and provides a reference for many things about Toretto that are not covered by Ebert above.


 * Source #3: Pages 71-78 of "Vin Diesel: Fueled for Success" by Nancy Krulik, Simon and Schuster, 2002 ISBN 9780689859823
 * These eight pages from Nancy Kruliks' biography of Vin Diesel have pages of information on the Dominic Toretto character, as well as: Vin Diesel's take on the character ("A character who is strong, who is a caretaker."), the take of Kevin Thomas of the Los Angeles Times ("surprising in the complexity of its key characters"), and the effect of portraying this character on Vin Diesel's career, including getting him (and Paul Walker) the 2002 MTV award for "Best On-Screen Team" (over the cast of "Ocean's Eleven"). (Note: even though Vin's thoughts, in themselves, might not be "independent", since the secondary source (Nancy) chose which ones to include, I think they count, and in any event, they are a small fraction of the material here.


 * Source #4: pp. 52-53 of: The American South in a global world by J.L. Peacock, H.L. Watson, C.R. Matthews, UNC Press Books, 2005, ISBN 9780807855898
 * In this section, Lucila Vargas describes how she uses the characters from "The Fast and the Furious", and in particular Dominic Toretto, of whom she says: "Toretto is a bit more complex as a character, and his race is ambiguous." to probe her students on their perceptions of Hollywood cinema. This source focuses on Toretto's relationships, and the fact it was published four years after the movie shows long term notability of Toretto, as does the republishing of this Toretto material in Latina teens, migration, and popular culture by Lucila Vargas, Peter Lang, publisher, 2009 ISBN 9780820488455.


 * Film reviews in newspapers by professional critics are WP:RS, even if online rather than print
 * (for example: "Several newspapers host columns they call blogs. These are acceptable as sources if the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control." WP:NEWSBLOG).


 * '''Source #5: Film Reviews in Britain at The Daily Telegraph by Nick Cowen and Hari Patience
 * The Daily Telegraph is a 150+ year old Conservative newspaper and the highest selling newspaper in Britain. The 2008 review of The Fast and The Furious and the 2009 review of Fast & Furious:
 * "Wheels On Film: The Fast & The Furious" By Nick Cowen and Hari Patience 22 Mar 2008
 * "Wheels On Film: Fast & Furious" By Nick Cowen and Hari Patience 09 Apr 2009
 * confirm details about Dominic Toretto from the prior sources, add new tidbits, provide a different perspective from Roger Ebert's reviews (they found a Dominic Toretto quote that Ebert praised "silly"), and show that Dominic Toretto's notability is not confined to the United States.


 * '''Source #6: Film Reviews in India at DNAIndia
 * Daily News and Analysis (DNA) is a Mumbai-based Liberal Indian daily newspaper launched in 2005, targeted at young readers. Their 2009 review of Fast & Furious and 2011 review of Fast Five:
 * "Fast and Furious 4 is faster and more furious" Apr 2, 2009 By Lhendup Gyatso Bhutia | Place: Mumbai | Agency: DNA
 * "Fast Five is more than mindless entertainment" May 5, 2011, 17:56 ISTvBy Mihir Fadnavis | Place: Mumbai | Agency: DNA
 * provide a lot of material on Dominic Toretto beyond the above (for example, this is the first source I've listed that covers "Fast Five"), and show that Dominic Toretto's notability is not confined to the Western Hemisphere.


 * '''Source #7: Film Reviews at CNN
 * Cable News Network (CNN) is a U.S. cable news channel founded in 1980 by Ted Turner. Their 2001 review of The Fast and the Furious and their 2011 review of Fast Five:
 * Review: 'Fast and Furious' runs on empty By Paul Clinton CNN Reviewer
 * 'Fast Five' is a thrill ride, so just go with it By Tom Charity, Special to CNN
 * are independent reliable secondary sources that fill in more plot details and interpretations of the Dominic Toretto character.


 * Source #8: Film Review of "Fast & Furious" at Toronto_Sun by Jim_Slotek
 * Smash, bang, zoom! By Jim Slotek ,QMI Agency, April 3, 2009


 * Source #9: MTV coverage of "Fast Five": Significance of Dom Toretto, Film Review
 * Why 'Fast Five' Dominates Box Office A Decade After Franchise Debut By Eric Ditzian By Eric Ditzian
 * Gives much of the credit for Universal's biggest opening since 1997 to Vin Diesel's embodiment of Dom Toretto. " 'Simply put, in the pantheon of action studs, Diesel is now immortalized as Dom.' (Jeff Bock, box-office analyst for Exhibitor Relations)"
 * Fast Five Movie Details (Full Summary) Mark Deming, Rovi


 * Source #10: Slate Magazine film review of "Fast Five" 
 * This reviewer sympathizes with the efforts to portray Dominic Toretto's family, protective side.
 * "Fast Five A tenderhearted family drama starring Vin Diesel". By Dana Stevens, April 29, 2011


 * Source #11: Ventura County Reporter film review of "Fast Five" 
 * This reviewer focuses on the sex appeal Vin Diesel brings to Dominic Toretto's character.
 * "Fill 'er up with Diesel" by Tim Pompey 05/05/2011


 * '''Summary: The significant coverage in the reliable sources listed above shows that "Dominic Toretto" satifies WP:GNG, hence should not be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Macchess (talk • contribs) 06:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Macchess appears to be confusing reviews of the actor's portrayal of this character with substantive in depth coverage of the character. So the argument above is spurious. Jezhotwells (talk) 07:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. It's like a lot of movie character in wikipedia. --Tipoldotre (talk) 09:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Strong delete Does not pass WP:GNG, as such, the article violates WP:NOTJUSTPLOT.Folken de Fanel (talk) 19:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete For all the reasons stated above. --Lecen (talk) 02:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.