Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dong Phuong Oriental Bakery


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) — Hue  Sat  Lum  21:52, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Dong Phuong Oriental Bakery

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  Stats )

Notability not established, fails WP:CORP. The only "independent" reference source is a couple of brief food reviews in a local newspaper. WWGB (talk) 22:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment The New York Times is not local to the location of the restaurant. . Infrogmation (talk) 00:27, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed. However, trivial mentions such as that don't count for the purposes of WP:CORP and WP:SIGCOV. ~Amatulić (talk) 03:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete It doesn't meet the Notability guidelines and therefore should be deleted. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to write about your local bakery. Electriccatfish2 (talk) 23:22, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment While certainly of note in greater New Orleans area, I make no vote as to if it falls within Wikipedia notability guidelines. I post to mention that there are variations on the restaurant name in use, so searching for the combination of phrases "Dong Phuong" "New Orleans" will return very significantly more results than the phrase "Dong Phuong Oriental Bakery". -- Infrogmation (talk)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. WWGB (talk) 22:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. WWGB (talk) 22:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 00:35, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep This subect is manifestly notable. It's far from being a local bakery. It's a historic location that is significant culturally and culinarily. There are oodles of additional sources that can be used . I'm not sure what the bias on Wikipedia is against notable independent businesses and notable small businesses, but a subject doesn't have to be a chain or a giant corporation to be influential, important, historic, significant and worth including. This business easily meets all of those criteria. Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Google hits showing various travel guides are sources? These are directories, not actual coverage. You are the author; what sources can you offer to prove that this establishments meets the criteria in WP:CORP? There is no "bias" here as you perceive, just people knowledgeable about our inclusion criteria. A small business can be notable, but it needs significant coverage in multiple reliable sources (not telephone books and travel directories), and that coverage must be more than local. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * They are not "Google hits", they are the results of a Google Books search showing coverage in a variety of sources on New Orleans history, cuisine, and culture. None of the books I saw listed were direectories. There is additional coverage from the NYT that I haven't had a chance to add. Lots of sources, including the major regional paper and sources outside the area, discuss this as a special and unique business that supplies its bread wholesale to many of the area restaurants and the sources also discuss in some detail its significance within the Vietnamese community as well as the expanding influence it has in the region more generally as Vietnamese cuisine catches on and its products have been discovered over the decades of its existence. It is a wholesale bakery, a popular retail bakery, and a restaurant. It's noted for its banh mi in major papers, it's noted for its baked goods, it's noted for its bread that is used by other businesses, and it sells its products in other areas of the country including here in Florida where I live. This is anything but "your local bakery". Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:04, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, please list specific examples, or better yet, but them in the article. Glancing over the Google books results reveals books like travel guidebooks pointing out restaurants in the area the book is about. That isn't exactly the "coverage" Wikipedia has in mind in WP:CORP. And dhe NYT item mentioned above is a trivial mention only. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have added several since the beginning of this discussion and will be adding several more as I have time. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:20, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There are also additional articles about the eatery and bakery here .Candleabracadabra (talk) 19:41, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I see the problem here. Let me try to explain what "significant coverage" means in the context of Wikipedia. That particular link isn't coverage. It's a New Orleans local site, all about local places, and each article on there are associated with that site.
 * WP:SIGCOV: Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability. The reviews on that site are not independent of that site. And furthermore...
 * WP:CORP: Evidence of attention by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, national, or international source is necessary. Also, trivial mentions don't count as "attention" by media. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:27, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I've added citations to a New York Times article that says of Dong Phuong: "If you’ve had a banh mi in New Orleans, chances are the bread came from Dong Phuong, on an undistinguished stretch of Chef Menteur Highway east of the city, near the church of Mary Queen of Vietnam. The bakery is on the right, a related restaurant on the left.

A banh mi from the bakery — meatballs with pâté and vegetables, and plenty of hot peppers — makes a parking-lot lunch at Dong Phuong one of the signal pleasures of the American South.

In the dining room, which draws a crowd from 11 a.m. on, there isn’t much of note, aesthetically. But the food is worth driving for: dark, peppery, shaking beef with onions and rice, say, or pork over vermicelli and a cold duck salad to eat with sweet tea."

I also added a New York Times Magazine article that says: "Some of the best Vietnamese sandwiches in America can be found in the South. In New Orleans it’s called a “Vietnamese Po Boy,” and most of the best spots can be found clustered east of Downtown on Chef Menteur Highway. Of these, the most unique experience is arguably Dong Phuong Oriental Bakery, where the banh mi seeker is shepherded around to the back of the bakery, past the brightly colored sweets and cakes, to be greeted by pork floss and chicken in a sliced baguette, made onsite and dressed with a butter-based aioli spread.. Again, there are lots and lots and lots of sources covering this subject including major regional papers such as the Times-Picayune, many books, internet publications, magazines, etc. etc. etc. It meets all the notability criteria because it's significant historically, culinarily, and culturally. Candleabracadabra (talk) 20:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable not just in culinary terms but as a important institution within New Orleans' Vietnamese-American community, and it has received substantial coverage from sources outside New Orleans.--Arxiloxos (talk) 18:46, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - Sufficient sources found to establish notability. Article still needs work for bare-url refs and peacock phrasing, but AfD is not for cleanup. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.