Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donté Bonner


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Great arguments by Struthious and Cunard. This is how an AFD is supposed to play out. Unfortunately for the article, the consensus is to delete. v/r - TP 14:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Donté Bonner

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One significant role in the film Sydney White didn't result in any media coverage. Fails WP:NACTOR. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:32, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom; fails WP:NACTOR and WP:GNG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ducknish (talk • contribs) 00:06, 1 May 2012‎ (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 00:22, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 19:31, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

 
 * Keep Between the television roles listed in the IMDB entry, a couple dozen Google News hits (which do mention the Sydney White role BTW), and several Google Books hits, this guy appears to satisfy the WP:NACTOR "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions" criterion. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 01:28, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. Which other notable productions? Of the three remaining films he's been in, one has 33 IMDb votes, and the other two have less than 5 apiece. Also, he has a grand total of two TV appearances, one as "uni[formed?] cop", and IMDb doesn't even have a description of the other. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Straight out of the Google News results: A Lesson Before Dying by Romulus Linney (playwright), Ceremonies in Dark Old Men by Lonne Elder III, The Bridegroom of Blowing Rock by Catherine Trieschmann, the title role in the East Coast premiere and other subsequent performances of The Elaborate Entrance of Chad Deity by Kristoffer Diaz, which was a finalist in 2010 for the Pulitzer Prize for Drama, and more... As far as the TV appearance in Boardwalk Empire this wiki describes his role as a supporting character.  Actor, writer, and assistant director credits for the film The Karaoke King, which is currently carried by Netflix.  But appearing in the title role of the East Coast premiere of a Pulitzer-prize-nominated stage performance seems enough to me. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 07:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, what the heck are IMDb votes and why would they have any bearing on Wikipedia notability? Do you have to be logged in to Facebook to see them? --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 07:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. His starring role in The Elaborate Entrance of Chad Deity, along with his part in The Karaoke King, may be enough to push him over the bar. As for IMDb votes, see the IMDb entry for The Karaoke King, which has 33 votes/ratings. Anything under a hundred votes or so for a recent production indicates it's very, very obscure.             Clarityfiend (talk) 00:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It looks like you need to have an IMDb account even to vote. That doesn't seem like a very good criteria to judge notability by, and on top of that obscurity by itself isn't an issue; cult films and other obscure works can be notable.  But at least we agree that the Chad Diety thing is relevant.  Sorry I forgot to link to the article I was talking about. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 00:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:49, 13 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete The subject fails Notability owing to the lack of reliable sources that directly address him. The mentions cited by are tangential and primarily list the subject's name in parentheses after a role he has played. None of the coverage I have reviewed has been of substance. The IMDb votes do not establish notability; popularity does not equate to notability and online votes are considered an unreliable indicator of notability. From Manual of Style/Film: "Do not include user ratings submitted to websites such as the Internet Movie Database or Rotten Tomatoes, as they are vulnerable to vote stacking and demographic skew." At http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815244/ (IMDb entry for the 2007 film Sydney White), Bonner is listed as the 13th actor, indicating he did not have a "significant role" as required by WP:NACTOR. Directing The Karaoke King does not establish notability because the film does not appear to have received much coverage (per a Google News Archive search). Appearing in the East Coast premiere of a Pulitzer-prize-nominated stage performance is insufficient because the work was nominator for a Pulitzer, not Bonner's performance. Bonner does not inherit the notability of the work merely because he played the lead role in a stage performance of it. From http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/13/2585985/the-elaborate-entrance-of-chad.html, I found that Bonner's performance was for the Caldwell Theatre Company, which appears to be a local theatre company. The media coverage is confined to Florida: The Palm Beach Post, The Miami Herald, and the Orlando Sentinel. Because the media coverage is primarily local, because the coverage is insignificant, and because Bonner's stage performances were for a local theatre company, I do not believe he passes WP:NACTOR, ("Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions"). The article is currently an unsourced Biography of a living person and fails Verifiability because the only two links in the articles are http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2033267/ and http://www.allrovi.com/name/p540865, directory websites that are unreliable. No prejudice to recreation if at least two reliable sources that nontrivially discuss Bonner can be found, which would allow him to pass Notability. Cunard (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Why would performances for local theatre companies not contribute to notability? Local television stations are usually notable, including many public access television stations; local radio stations are notable; and the programs produced locally and broadcast on these stations are often notable.  By the way, the Boca Raton performance from this year is not the only place that Bonner performed in the title role in The Elaborate Entrance of Chad Deity - the East Coast premiere mentioned above was this one in Philadelphia in 2009, I believe. (As reported in a Boston paper.)  At the very least, per the Google News hits the guy has been in stage performances all over Florida as well as the various roles mentioned elsewhere in the country and on film and television.  I also don't think that the coverage of him not discussing his career biographically, but only discussing the performances he was part of which are the reason for his notability, is a problem.  If you look at other aspects of notability (people), biographical coverage of the person themselves in RSS isn't necessary: for academics, for example, it says that many academics "are notably influential in the world of ideas without their biographies being the subject of secondary sources" or in WP:CREATIVE something like an artist's works being included in a collection is what makes them notable, not that they themselves have been discussed.  For a non-person example, no one has written any articles in a RSS that specifically discuss Florida State Road 9336 but that doesn't mean that it isn't notable.  Also, I don't see why you think that verifiability is a problem.  Where he went to high school or college would be verifiable in those schools' year books and other records, his birth date would be verifiable in hospital or Social Security records or his driver's license if it was even challenged, etc.  Verifiability isn't about whether a person reading the article can verify what's in it via hyperlinks to online sources that are in the article, it's about whether the information in an article is of a type that can be verified. -- ▸∮ truthious ᛔ andersnatch ◂ 20:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The precedent in the AfDs I've participated in is that local performances do not contribute to notability unless said performances received significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. In Bonner's case, the articles you've cited violate WP:ROUTINE in that they are primarily announcements about the shows he's been in. His name is dropped perhaps once or twice in the articles, which does not establish notability. Per Biographies of living persons and Verifiability, primary sources are categorically prohibited for articles about living people. Only when such information is reported in third-party reliable sources can it be included in the article. Cunard (talk) 23:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that newspaper articles written by theatre critics are "just announcements"? This does not seem true to me.  Also, WP:ROUTINE says things like "Routine events such as sports matches, film premieres, press conferences etc. may be better covered as part of another article, if at all" - it's saying that the events themselves probably shouldn't get their own article, not that all the sports matches an athlete has participated in have nothing to do with his or her notability.  The principles you propose would seem to say that a theatre actor has to be so famous that they're written about outside of their field on a national level before they can be notable.  And all I see is proscription for Wikipedia editors from seeking out private information or relying on self-published sources to write an article, not anything that says that information should be considered unverifiable if the third-party sources in question were something like a school's yearbook or other records.  Since we're getting into semantics here, you are conflating "local" and "state-wide", which don't mean the same thing.  -- ▸∮ truthious ᛔ andersnatch ◂ 00:24, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/13/2585985/the-elaborate-entrance-of-chad.html: "Catch the action at the Caldwell Theatre Company, 7901 N. Federal Hwy., Boca Raton, through Feb. 12. Performances are at 8 p.m. Wednesday-Saturday, 2 p.m. Wednesday and Saturday-Sunday. (also some Tuesday evening shows). Tickets are $27-$50. Call 561-241-7432 or visit www.caldwelltheatre.com." http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/orlandosentinel/access/278246591.html?dids=278246591:278246591&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jan+18%2C+2003&author=Elizabeth+Maupin%2C+Sentinel+Theater+Critic&pub=Orlando+Sentinel&desc=%60CEREMONIES%27+IS+A+RICH+SLICE+OF+LIFE+GONE+BY&pqatl=google: "When: 8 p.m. today 2 p.m. Sunday (also, 8 p.m. Jan. 30 and 31 and Feb. 1, 2 p.m. Feb. 2). How much: $10 general, $9 seniors, $6 students. Where to call: 407-823-1500. BOX: BEHIND SCENES Director Douglas Turner Ward will participate with actor Robert Hooks in a conversation about the funding of the Negro Ensemble Company at 7:30 p.m. Thursday in Eatonville as part of the Zora Neale Hurston Festival. He's also one of the honorees at the festival's gala next Saturday night. For more information visit the festival Web site at www.zoranealehurston.cc" http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/orlandosentinel/access/907310841.html?dids=907310841:907310841&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Oct+06%2C+2005&author=Elizabeth+Maupin%2C+Sentinel+Theater+Critic&pub=Orlando+Sentinel&desc=Like+its+title%2C+a+play+offers+to+educate+%3B+In+%60A+Lesson+Before+Dying%2C%27+the+director+and+an+actor+see+familiar+real-life+issues.&pqatl=google: "Where: Mad Cow Theatre, 105 S. Magnolia Ave., Orlando. When: 8 p.m. Thursdays-Saturdays, 3 p.m. Sundays, through Oct. 30 (also, 8 p.m. Oct. 26). Cost: $20 general, $18 seniors and full-time students; pay what you wish Oct. 26, with proceeds going to Hurricane Katrina relief. Call: 407-297-8788. Online: madcowtheatre.com." These articles provide little substance other than what I've quoted above and are routine announcements because they provide merely short plot summaries, cast lists, dates, times, and prices. They fail to offer critical analysis about the plays but more importantly, they fail to offer critical analysis about Bonner's performances. I will accept as establishing notability two articles that provide nontrivial coverage about Bonner. They can both be from Florida sources. The sources here do not provide such coverage, and I have been unable to find any. To retain a biography of a living person when reliable sources say little about him is untenable. The verifiability and BLP policies prohibit the use of school yearbooks and other primary sources in BLPs. Because their use is impermissible, the information should be deleted until they can be sourced to third-party reliable sources. Cunard (talk) 00:54, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * If the entirety of those articles were contained in the "abstract" text and the links offering "full text" are fake, I would accept your argument that those particular ones don't qualify as more than announcements. But I'm not entirely sure that's the case.  As a counterexample, here are the paragraphs dealing with Bonner from a January Palm Beach Post article:"Even the title character is a metaphor. 'He stands for the American dream, for the illusion we all have that if you work hard you’ll be rich,' says Donte Bonner, who plays Chad Deity here after originating the role in the East Coast premiere last year in Philadelphia. 'Chad is a young, hip, cool black guy, rich. He’s got everything he could possibly want — muscle cars, everything – in the kind of America that America likes to see.' A fan of World Wrestling Federation matches since he was a kid, Bonner was ready for the physical workout the play demands. 'I do a ‘bulldog,’ which is where I have a guy in a headlock and I leap in the air and smash his face to the ground. And there’s a ‘power bomb,’ which is Chad’s trademark move, where I put a guy up on my shoulders and slam him down on his back,' he says. 'You’re going to wonder how we can do it eight times a week.'  The answer is the coaching and wrestling choreography of WWF veteran Pablo Marquez, who says the key is knowing how to take a fall. 'That’s probably the toughest thing to overcome, the fear of falling backward without panicking and trying to put your hands down. That’s when you get hurt,' he cautions. 'My art is to make it look like it is hurting you, but in reality it’s really not.'  Bonner calls Chad Deity 'a very current play with very current characters and enormous relevance to today,' but he suspects that audiences will leave the Caldwell talking about the wrestling moves. 'We’re going to be doing for-real serious pro wrestling that will make you really uncomfortable,' he says. 'That’s a 100 percent promise. That’s my one purpose in this show, to make my wrestling matches as bad-ass as possible.'"Note that there is a blurb in the footer of that article that looks somewhat like the abstracts you quoted above.  Here are a couple of articles that appear from their lead-in to be similar to the above, but the full article is paywalled: Palm Beach Post, "'Bridegroom' Pairing Lacks Chemistry, Coherent Script":"If you're going to tell a heart-wrenching romantic tale between two star-crossed lovers -- or any lovers, for that matter -- the actors playing them must have that mystical, magical, wonderful quality called chemistry. When the chemistry is right between two characters either in love or falling in it, the audience is more than willing to take that journey with them. But when there's isn't any chemistry or just a modest amount of it, well, no one is..."But, the blurb which Google News gives us: "Catherine Trieschmann's The Bridegroom of Blowing Rock will emotionally invest themselves in two characters:a black Yankee soldier (Donté Bonner) with a..." lets us know that one of the pairing that lacks chemistry that the article is about is Bonner.  Next, Philadelphia Inquirer, "Nimble, funny, thoughtful headlock on wrestling":"On tonight's wrestling card, we have the American who stands for everything good we learned in civics, or from Mom or by eating apple pie - Chad Deity. He's pure of thought, black and beautiful, resplendent in ringside bling and a shining gold jockstrap. He's built like your proverbial brick facility.(His given name is Darnell, butshhhh!) Opposite him is the Fanatic, whose wrestling resumé has him representing al Qaeda, Hamas, and for good measure, the..." The rest of that one is paywalled but it seems pretty reasonable to assume that the full article is at least somewhat similar to the Chad Diety piece above so that is much more than an announcement of the performance. (Or, rather, the above Palm Beach Post piece is a column mentioning several different performances, so these others entirely about the play may provide even more coverage.)  Okay, actually, I just realized that these archives are giving the word counts of the full articles, so I don't know about the Miami Herald one but even the Orlando Sentinel articles are definitely much larger than the abstracts you've been quoting above. The verifiability and BLP policies prohibit the use of school yearbooks and other primary sources in BLPs. Because their use is impermissible, the information should be deleted until they can be sourced to third-party reliable sources. Your conclusion just doesn't follow your premise there.  We have no reason to believe that those sorts of sources were what was used to write this article and acknowledging that the information is not unverifiable because it can be verified in those types of sources is not the same thing as writing the article using such sources.  The policies and guidelines you're citing talk about "contentious material" and "the possibility of harm to living subjects" and "material challenged or likely to be challenged" - they aren't just there to permit someone to bludgeon their way to a deletion on a technicality, they do not mean what you're claiming they mean.  Or even say what you're claiming they say - they enjoin the writer to write "focusing on high quality secondary sources" and "exercise caution in using primary sources" - the things you portray as utterly verboten are not, and it has nothing to do with whether editors assessing the verifiability of unchallenged non-contentious material have to pretend that information that could at the very least be verified in third-party primary sources is unverifiable.  The strictures you're implying would mean that something like material verifiable in a published journalist's face-to-face interview with the subject of the article would have to be deleted too, since that would be a primary third-party source also. -- ▸∮ truthious ᛔ andersnatch ◂ 11:29, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Delete: This is a very old AfD, so I'll put in my delete, which I know will doom it. However, the current delete !votes appear to be correct that the subject doesn't meet WP:GNG. I can't find even one decent article to try to justify this.--Milowent • hasspoken 13:02, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * But if deleted, and recreated with real sourcing, I would object to any CSD instead of a 2nd AfD.--Milowent • hasspoken 13:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.