Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Downtown Brantford punk rock scene


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete. Our policies on verifiability and our prohibition on original research mandate deletion in this case. The sources are patently unreliable, and their synthesis is original. Sandstein 06:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Downtown Brantford punk rock scene

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

I was looking through contested speedy deletion candidates at CAT:CSD. An author of this article eloquently contested the speedy tagging on the grounds that, if I may translate, WP:NOT and the group of bands is notable. I think the article should be deleted (the excess of links hint at spam, and I'm not sold on the notability), but I agree with this fellow that speedy is not the right procedure. (If I acted "out of procedure" by taking this from CAT:CSD to AFD, please let me know on my talk page.) YechielMan 05:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC) [article in question: Orange County Transportation Authority] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.132.146 (talk • contribs)
 * Delete. Downtown Brantford, ON, CA may have had a good punk scene, but this essay (ding one) doesn't explain the notability (ding 2) or verifiability (ding 3) of how this fits into something beyond its locality (ding 4).  --Dennisthe2 06:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, at 90,000 population Brantford seems large enough to have a music "scene" but I need convincing by reliable sources that it's at all notable. Almost every hyperlink in the introduction leads to Geocities or MySpace. --Dhartung | Talk 06:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, per Dhartung, RJASE1 13:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment This article might have been hastily prepared. The evolution of the Brantford music scene in the "Punk Rock" genre is a progressive one that starts at 1980 and slowly cumulated into people starting an arts venue much later (2002), now known as The Ford Plant which has gained Canadian national recognition in the "indie rock" genre. Sources on validity of this are limited. The majority of the links are located on one Geocities site, the validity of the author of the site seems researched with printed local sources but much seems to be first hand experience. The individual bands might be notable. The call on "hint at spam" might not be true. Brantford is a town of 90000. This might be the only online source of information on this subject. The article might develop into something more substantial. A title change might be appropriate, "Brantford Punk Music Scene" *Delete if the phenomenon has existed since 1980 and is notable, there would be references. 26 years is long enough time for references to accrue.-MsHyde 18:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * KEEP Wow, what's the deal around here?  We have sources, we have newspaper articles, we have enough to make this an interesting article (we will gather and contribute them).  Did "Dhartung" follow any of those links to investigate the material on the sites before he dismissed them based on the domain that hosts them (geocities, myspace)?  I would be surprised if they did.  How can you practice this dismissiveness inside wikipedia, when wikipedia itself suffers such snobbery in virtually every academic and information institution in the world?          What's the point of rushing to delete it?  It is an article about a community, we'd like the chance to let the community members build it up.  Is there no room for a gestation period on wikipedia?  Why is there such a rush to kill this article?  It is obviously not a prank, it is not offensive, it is not plagerized, it is clearly an earnest effort to tell a story.  It is a legitimate subject, it is an article made for wikipedia, in that the subject exists in the memories of a disparate bunch who left the economically depressed city.  If this original article doesn't stand, then what is the benefit to (or for that matter of) wikipedia?  If you're in such a hurry to kill the story of kids who tried to make some art in the midst of a bleak situation (a situation that still stands, and new groups of kids still are fighting the fight) then who's stories should be told?  Stories well documented, stories better and more legitamately documented in actual academic/journalistic sources?  Wiki will never be 'legitimate' to those people, so why not allow it to fill the void they leave?                        27 years is a long time, and a lot of people to gather and a lot of stories to tell.  It isn't a well-told narrative we are copying and pasting like so much on wikipedia, it is an original story being compiled and told here for the first time.  It isn't so easy to create a Historical narrative from primary sources as it is for you people (would-be gatekeepers) to kill it.  Also, what is wrong with "first hand experiences"?  In History such things are Primary Sources and are considered almost sacred (wiki "Primary Sources" or Leopold von Ranke for an education).  For you to dismiss them, wikimandate or not, undermines wikipedia's potential and (wikimandate or not) purpose as a democratic source of information open to all perspectives and voices regardless of traditional 'standards'.  It is easy to dismiss a budding article like this, why not let it grow?  That is the point of wikipedia.
 * KEEP This article should be kept. There is valid research going on with the subject. There is a large amount of valid documentation on it outside the Internet. The Brant Museum and Archives does have a holding of part of this information on the Punk Rock scene. The sign of "Second Wave" is currently stored in their collection, and is an excellent example of a business that tried to survive in a cities economic depression during the mid 1990's. The Brant Museum and Archives is a valid museum that has been gathering the culture of the community of Brant County since 1908, in all its forms. All this information can be verified by museum staff, and is currently being researched by museum staff. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.199.164 (talk) 17:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Comment Noone's going to contribute to the article in question, or improve it until the axe isn't hanging over it anymore.. so it is a bit of a catch-22.  Improve it or it will be removed, & will it be removed?  If so, why waste time writing it?  Too bad... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.100.34.167 (talk • contribs)
 * What makes you say that? Seems that AfD has provided the incentive for many an article improvement.  At this point, if not you, who's going to change it?  Please! Change our minds!  Being dramatic won't help, following what needs to be done will! --Dennisthe2 00:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment How long have we got?(!) I'm not trying to be dramatic.(!) (Please!) I'm busy getting my Masters' degree these days.(!)  Will work on it when I get (if you give me/us) the chance. This has been an enlightening introduction to Wikipedia.  (btw, it's just 3:2 delete:keep..) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.110.90.10 (talk) 05:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC).
 * One very important thing to consider before I give the links: this is not a vote, this is an attempt to build consensus. Now then, what you might refer to is this link for verifiability guidelines, this link for notability guidelines, and go here for good guidelines on what are considered reliable sources.  In the case of punk music scenery... I'd almost be inclined to pull out WP:MUSIC from my hat for a reference.  Now that aside, if you're working on your masters, I'd suggest this: take the content, put it in your userpage somewhere (you do have an account, don't you?).  Being you have that degree coming up, I don't know what time constraints you have - but currently, the way this stands, unless we can't build a concensus, it has roughly three days. --Dennisthe2 06:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * CommentThere are a large amount of printed articles on the Punk/New Wave scene in Brantford from the local newspaper The Brantford Expositor . Starting point is 1977 with current research. These can be found.
 * Comment They need to be cited though, do you have them handy? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.110.90.10 (talk) 16:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Comment They will be cited in time. I just discovered hard copies in a persons collection last night. I will be getting copies of these articles. I've personally seen many articles, this requires going through Microfilm readers at the local public library to get the information. Time is hard to find to do that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.199.164 (talk) 16:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC).
 * I think on these three above comments, WP:LOCAL may apply. Be careful to pull something that points to notability beyond the city. --Dennisthe2 04:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * ...erm, for what it's worth, a Myspace link is inherently unnotable. --Dennisthe2 22:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Wow, I am impressed.  Nice job on the article, and that Academy of Learning ad is great in your Vic Moya page.  Your archive is really, really good Rob.  I guess you knew that, I'm just seeing it all now for the first time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.110.90.10 (talk • contribs)
 * Delete Appears unverifiable so far. The references provided are Geocities, broken links, or Wikipedia.  If it'll take time to get sources but they do exist, then consider userfying.  ShadowHalo 04:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment All the information is verifiable. There are printed sources that are not on the internet. There are dozens of video interviews with people verifying this information that are not on the internet. This does exists. Does everything have to be on the internet to make it verifiable? To delete this article on that stand point is very pretentious. You might as well Nominate the Ford Plant site for deletion as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.199.164 (talk) 17:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Not always, but in the case of the local publications...well, frankly, I for one am not going to travel to Brantford, ON, Canada to verify the information - so yes, it does need to be on the 'net in one form or another. See WP:RS for guidelines.  Keep in mind, too, that if you can't find other resources, then like I pointed out, WP:LOCAL is what's going to apply here.  Follow ShadowHalo's advice, and stick it on a user page for now if you have to get more time. --Dennisthe2 19:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's some hypocrisy, your was it Orange County Buslines (whatever you called it, I forgot already) article had just a single citation and has absolutely no relevance to anyone outside of that region. *None* it shows nothing especially unique from any other big area in the world and their bus systems.  It is a totally regional, and far less interesting/necessary than the article you are trying to delete.  How do I nominate it for deletion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.132.146 (talk) 20:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Go ahead, put it up for AFD - please, just try to prove a point. If you really think that you should try and prove a point despite reading that link (and really, you should), WP:AFD is your friend.  --Dennisthe2 05:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.