Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dragon gate


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Great Mosque of Kufa. Unanimous consensus. is strongly cautioned against making unsubstantiated personal attacks. (non-admin closure) Winged Blades of Godric On leave 16:42, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Dragon gate

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

The main concern is Notability, which is not demonstrated. The article is based on Bihar al-Anwar, a WP:PRIMARY that contains probably millions of hadith. Pahlevun (talk) 12:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2017 September 12.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 12:57, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:04, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Merge with Great Mosque of Kufa, I cannot see why the door of this mosque needs its own article, especially considering the small size of the main article. &Alpha; Guy into Books &trade;  &sect; ( Message ) -  14:53, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Because due to the Islamic zealotry it was a controversial to mention a reliable hilarious Hadith in the main article so I presented it in a separate article to stay moderated just like the Quran and Criticism of Quran or Jesus but the official Shiite sources below are defending the Hadith and they are not rejecting it. Now I called the Hadith as the background of the name of the Dragon gate in the main article. -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 15:36, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Merge Agree with above.Slatersteven (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Merge per above. Just one short narration that provides some sort of information about the gate does not satisfy the "significant coverage" required by GNG. Additionally, such narrations or hadiths are not to be considered reliable sources per WP:ISLAMOR. --HyperGaruda (talk) 05:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Merge but keeping the Hadith (during the merge) because it has reliable sources including official website of the Mosque and many more other official Shiite clerical sources ( WP:ISLAM WP:MOSISLAM) or news agencies :
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20130919075523/http://www.masjed-alkufa.net/news.php?readmore=203
 * https://www.imamhussain.org/persian/ahlulbayt-55/19608 (https://web.archive.org/save/https://www.imamhussain.org/persian/ahlulbayt-55/19608) (Imam Husayn Shrine)
 * https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa77393 (secondary by a high ranked clergy fa:مهدی هادوی تهرانی from Assembly of Experts) source for Tehrani+islamquest.net archive (guarantee)
 * hawza : http://www.hawzah.net/fa/Magazine/View/3301/5343/50193/اماکن-زیارتی-منتسب-به-امام-زمان-(عجل-الله-تعالی-فرجه-الشریف)-در-ایران-و-جهان-(3)
 * الخرائج و الجرائج، ج 1، ص 189; الثاقب، ص 248; مدینة المعاجز، ج 1، ص 141
 * sibtayn
 * http://fa.wikishia.net/view/اعمال_مسجد_کوفه

-- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 15:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments

 * There is nothing related to the WP:Primary but it is based on the secondary source of the official website of the Mosque : باب الثعبان هذا الاسم الذي حاول بنو أمية ومن تلاهم تغييره ولم يستطيعوا و بقي رمزا لمسجد الكوفة ومنقبة من مناقب الإمام علي (عليه السلام) also another source of a ISNA : تو دستگير شو اي خضر پي خجسته. So @Pahlevun I have to remind : Wiki is not WP:CENSORed. -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 07:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The official website for the mosque is not independent to establish notability, and ISNA is just a trivia, mentioning then name. This article is a coatrack and content fork and should be deleted. Pahlevun (talk) 09:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Notability doesn't mean any one (in the world) knows that thing. For example how many people know The Book of Law ? But it is a fact some thing clearly exists. The Dragon Gate (باب الثعبان) is something clearly exists and has a clear background and you just censoring the background... from the wiki articles.


 * +WP:NNC:"Notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article" -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 19:52, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Failing to meet the Notability criterias is a reason for deletion. Pahlevun (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi Diannaa, Can you help or ping some one here to present a 3rd opinion? Thanks. I think Pahlevun is censoring the official website of the Kufa mosque here :
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Mosque_of_Kufa&diff=800401183&oldid=800392676
 * This is clearly censorship
 * @Pahlevun : Again, the official website of the mosque is not a Primary source. Notability doesn't mean any one (in the world) knows that thing. For example how many people know The Book of Law ? But it is a fact that the film clearly exists. The Dragon Gate (باب الثعبان) is something clearly exists and has a clear background and you are censoring the background from the wiki articles(@Pahlevun).-- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 20:10, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * One clear sign of censorship is the Hadith itself in the Arabic-lang from the mosque website which is still in the article nominated for merging the content. "أمير المؤمنين الأمام علي بن أبي طالب (عليه السلام) يخطب على منبره في مسجد الكوفة, إذ ظهر ثعبان من جانب المنبر وجعل يجر ويرقى حتى دنا من أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) , فارتاع الناس من ذلك وهمّوا أن يدفعوه عن الإمام (عليه السلام), فقام الثعبان ثم انحنى الإمام على الثعبان حتى التقم الثعبان إذنه , فتحيّّر الناس من ذلك , وهو يحدثه فسمع من كان قريبا كلام الثعبان ثم زال عن مكانه , وأمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) جعل يحرّك شفتيه , والثعبان كالمصغي إليه , ثم سار الثعبان وخرج , وعاد أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) إلى خطبته وأتمها , فلما فرغ نزل من المنبر فاجتمع إليه الناس يسألونه عن حال الثعبان والأعجوبة فيه, فقال( عليه السلام) : ليس ذلك كما ظننتم , وإنما كان ذلك حاكما على الجن!! ,فالتبست عليه قضية وصعبت , فجاء ليستفهمها فاهمته إياها , فدعا لي بالخير وانصرف." But Pahlevun censors the English translation of the Hadith. -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 20:16, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi, HyperGaruda you had a translation edit in the article and you are familiar to Arabic language please check whether the Hadith translation is same as the Hadith in the Mosque website source? -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 20:22, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Some photos of the doorway + translation prove
 * https://www.panoramio.com/photo/56766226
 * https://www.imamhussain.org/persian/ahlulbayt-55/19608

Also the Official website is the secondary source and is referring to the Hadith of the Bihar al-Anwar EXACTLY (@Anyone : CAN'T YOU READ ARABIC? SEEK YOUR SELF THIS WAY) : Bihar al-Anwar (Bihār al-Anwār (Arabic: بحار الأنوار‎‎, meaning "Seas of Lights")) In the official website of the mosque : OR : -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 21:27, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20130919075523/http://www.masjed-alkufa.net/news.php?readmore=203 (...متداول على السنة الناس, لما روي في البحار ومدينة المعاجز وغرر المناقب ,وسبب تسميته بباب الثعبان انه بينما كان...)
 * Google translate : https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20130919075523%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.masjed-alkufa.net%2Fnews.php%3Freadmore%3D203&edit-text=&act=url
 * I do have to say that the English translation in the article is not the same as the original Arabic narration. For example, it says nowhere that the serpent/dragon kissed Ali's feet nor is anyone called Jaber ibn Sami' mentioned there. --HyperGaruda (talk) 05:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

""Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. For example, advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not considered independent." So the official website of something is not enough to establish notability.Slatersteven (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Pahlevun is arguing that : "@IranianNationalist This is very interesting that when you wrote یه کم بخندیم :D به این منابع معتبر, you have confessed that the source is not reliable. Wikipedia is not your laughingstock."

I replied him differently that I laugh to many different things :D but I have another response for him here : Al-Masih ad-Dajjal current permalink Ali was reported to have said: His right eye will be punctured, and his left eye would be raised to his forehead and will be sparkling like a star. Only the believers will be able to read the word "Kafir" [disbeliever], inscribed in bold letters, on his forehead. There will be big mountains of smoke at both front and backsides of his caravan. People will anticipate food within those mountains, during the severe famine. All rivers, falling in his way, will become dry and he will call upon people in a loud voice, "O my friends come to me! I am your lord who has made your limbs and given you sustenance."[5]

If these Hadithes seem ridiculous to you (or me as I laugh) and you want to say these are false Hadithes it doesn't mean to censor them from Wikipedia because these Hadithes have a COMPLETELY HISTORIC BACKGROUND absolutely same as the myth of God or the Moses legend of the opening a way through the river if you don't believe it doesn't rationalize to censor these stories from wiki < :)

It has been said in here (https://www.imamhussain.org/persian/ahlulbayt-55/19608) : مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى وَ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحَسَنِ‏ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ هَاشِمٍ عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ عُثْمَانَ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ أَيُّوبَ عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ شِمْرٍ عَنْ جَابِرٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ (ع) قَالَ: بَيْنَا أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (ع) عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ إِذْ أَقْبَلَ ثُعْبَانٌ مِنْ نَاحِيَةِ بَابٍ مِنْ أَبْوَابِ الْمَسْجِدِ فَهَمَّ النَّاسُ أَنْ يَقْتُلُوهُ فَأَرْسَلَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (ع) أَنْ كُفُّوا فَكَفُّوا وَ أَقْبَلَ الثُّعْبَانُ يَنْسَابُ‏ حَتَّى انْتَهَى إِلَى الْمِنْبَرِ فَتَطَاوَلَ فَسَلَّمَ عَلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (ع) فَأَشَارَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (ع) إِلَيْهِ أَنْ يَقِفَ حَتَّى يَفْرُغَ مِنْ خُطْبَتِهِ وَ لَمَّا فَرَغَ مِنْ خُطْبَتِهِ أَقْبَلَ عَلَيْهِ فَقَالَ مَنْ أَنْتَ فَقَالَ عَمْرُو بْنُ عُثْمَانَ خَلِيفَتِكَ عَلَى الْجِنِّ وَ إِنَّ أَبِي مَاتَ وَ أَوْصَانِي أَنْ آتِيَكَ فَأَسْتَطْلِعَ رَأْيَكَ وَ قَدْ أَتَيْتُكَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَمَا تَأْمُرُنِي بِهِ وَ مَا تَرَى فَقَالَ لَهُ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (ع) أُوصِيكَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ وَ أَنْ تَنْصَرِفَ فَتَقُومَ مَقَامَ أَبِيكَ فِي الْجِنِّ فَإِنَّكَ خَلِيفَتِي عَلَيْهِمْ قَالَ فَوَدَّعَ عَمْرٌو أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (ع) وَ انْصَرَفَ فَهُوَ خَلِيفَتُهُ عَلَى الْجِنِّ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ فَيَأْتِيكَ عَمْرٌو وَ ذَاكَ الْوَاجِبُ عَلَيْهِ قَالَ نَعَمْ. And the Dragon crawled up to the rostrum and raised up and SAID Hello to the Amir al-momenin :D (no kiss, kiss is forbidden) anyway the fun part of the Hadith is completely in the historic sources and these secondary sources however in different ways. The kiss of feet is in the ISNA source in Persian language. -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 14:20, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The independent source of another Shiite official website of Imam Hussain : https://www.imamhussain.org/persian/ahlulbayt-55/19608
 * Is this source OK?-- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 14:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Notability, not only does it have to be independent (who is  Imam Hussain?) it also must be an RS (So does this website fit our criteria for being an RS?).Slatersteven (talk) 14:43, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

The source of Al-Masih ad-Dajjal current permalink I reminded above is : Bilgrami, Sayed Tahir (2005). "6". Essence of Life, A translation of Ain al-Hayat by Allama Mohammad Baqir Majlisi. Qum: Ansarian Publications. p. 104.

Where is Qum? You are talking about the article title but the discussion is about the WP:PRIMARY and content censorship in these diffs : I want to add a note, this user Pahlevun has a Persian name means "Hero" and this user has made no deletion polling in the Persian article. You probably ask yourself why? Because in Persian Wiki many people can read Persian and Arabic sources of this article and search for more online sources. Is it necessary for me to talk about censorship more? Is Wiki an Encyclopedia? Or a political war place? May be wonderful for the staffs in the Jimmy Wales office. -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 14:58, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Special:Diff/800401183
 * Special:Diff/800475867
 * Special:Diff/800487503
 * This is not about Pahlevun. So please address my questions, (who is Imam Hussain?) and (does this website fit our criteria for being an RS?).Slatersteven (talk) 15:01, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Imam Husayn Shrine I listed more reliable sources. If you can't read Persian or Arabic you can use google translate and search a few about باب الثعبان instead of giving help to the Islamic Republic regime of Iran censorship and Paradox of having double standard between Wiki En and Wiki Fa based on Persian talking ability. (If you don't know the source of Shiiticism started from Iran (Safavids)) -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 15:41, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Well as you accept the merger this is not the place to discus what sources you have.Slatersteven (talk) 15:45, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Instead of providing excuse you can ask why Pahlevun said : "a WP:PRIMARY that contains probably millions of hadith". If he made this talk to discuss upon PRIMARY source so I WILL PROVIDE AND DEFEND the OFFICIAL SOURCE. I can see prejudices clearly in this talk :v -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 17:58, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I have asked you to stop making PA's.Slatersteven (talk) 17:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Dragon or snake
Where did you get the translation "Dragon" from? A thu’bān is a snake, while a dragon would be tanīn. No wonder nobody can find sources for "Dragon gate". I would suggest to retarget "Dragon gate" to Dragon Gate after stuff has been merged, as it is an incorrect and probably made up translation of Bāb al-Thu‘bān. --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:36, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * It is said as اژدها or dragon in Farsi language sources (reminding the Bihar al-Anwar was a product by Iranian Safavid dynasty). However snake or serpent(large snake like biblical evil almost means monster has similar meaning to Dragon in Farsi language) However snake or serpent are present in Farsi sources too.
 * https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa77393
 * But like other Arabic words Thoban has different meanings including hydra or 9 head snake-like monster : https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/ثعبان
 * Anyway I'm agree with you to make the Dragon gate a redirect to the Dragon Gate to disambiguate.
 * -- IranianNationalist (Welcome) 19:59, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Safavid or not, Bihar al-Anwar was originally written in Arabic like most religious literature back then and since the gate is located in Iraq, an Arabic-speaking country, it does not make sense to base translations on a detour from Arabic via Farsi to English. You should instead try to find translations from Arabic directly into English, such as the "Gate of the Snake" used in this source. --HyperGaruda (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the Arabic word thu’bān, but one of the meanings of the Farsi word اژدها is a large snake according to the Dehkhoda Dictionary. Curiousity7919 (talk) 16:35, 17 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.