Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dundee City Council wards


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Wards of Dundee. Or similar, as determined by editorial consensus.  Sandstein  19:19, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Dundee City Council wards

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

All of these pages fail WP:NOTSTATS. There is no proper prose (the only one which contains anything basically has a textual summary, unsourced, of the stats tables lower below) or other encyclopedic content whatsoever about these electoral wards which are of only very limited significance (i.e. there's not much if anything beyond WP:ROTM: yeah, most cities in Western democracies have electoral wards for local elections, but there's not much to be said about the vast majority of them, and these ones seem like no exception). On top of that many don't seem to cite a single source for the stats results within, so fail WP:V as well. These should all probably be redirected to Dundee City Council; and Template:Wards of Dundee should probably be deleted. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:35, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose: Hi, thank you for letting me know about this. I do not agree with the consideration of deleting these pages considering they are wards which have been useful in identifying the electoral results of Dundee City Council elections. Also, it is worth noting that city councils such as Glasgow City Council have pages on their wards such as (Linn (ward), Newlands/Auldburn (ward), Govan (ward) and Shettleston (ward) to name a few. Edinburgh City Council too: Almond (Edinburgh ward), Pentland Hills (Edinburgh ward), City Centre (Edinburgh ward), Leith (Edinburgh ward) to name a few there. I think it would be absurd to delete Dundee's ward pages when other cities and areas across Scotland have them and there seems to be no issue there. I have added extra references to these pages to back up the content but in terms of deletion, no, I strongly oppose. --KeyKing666 (talk) 09:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The problem is that being "useful" (or other wards being similarly routine and unremarkable) are not good reasons to keep these ones. Wikipedia is not a statistical database, and readers who are interested in the exact detailed results can go on other sites (such as would be used as sources for supporting the content of the main article body) for this. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:13, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, so what would the difference be in regards to other councils which have ward pages of their own as I linked above? I seriously don't understand the need in deleting these pages when other councils have their own ward pages on Wikipedia. What's the difference? -KeyKing666 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The "difference" is that there probably is none and those other similar pages should probably also similarly be nominated for deletion/redirected to other articles. As I was linking above, That an article on a similar subject exists does not prove that the article in question should also exist; it is quite possible that the other article should also be deleted but nobody has noticed it and listed it for deletion yet. Or, in other words, similarly problematic articles existing is not a reason to keep these ones, it's a reason to remove the others, too... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:22, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll also note that no information would really be lost even if the pages were deleted; individual election pages (for ex. 2017 Dundee City Council election) already have all of the stats but with actual context and prose to back it up as a proper encyclopedia article and not a mere statistical database. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:30, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @RandomCanadian I just don't think it is a great idea because election pages would not have the list of councillors the area served. I've added sections about the ward and electoral history to them and of course sources. If we applied that same logic to UK or Scottish parliamentary constituencies and region pages, would they need to be deleted too? Some of the ward pages from other cities and councils across the UK have been on Wikipedia for over ten years and they've not faced any issues. What makes this is an issue? I just don't get it. KeyKing666 (talk) 19:44, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that all that can be said about those wards is "The [x] ward was created in 2007 after the 29 existing single member wards were merged into 8 multi-member wards, one of which was the [x] ward" along with a textual retelling of what the stats tables already say simply shows this is information which could more efficiently be convoyed to the readers on a single page (I wouldn't know, maybe Dundee City Council, where none of this information currently is) instead of being split and repeated across a half dozen (i.e. see WP:NOPAGE). This not only helps readers (by having all the information they are likely to seek on a single article instead of having to recuperate it from multiple ones) but also editors (by making it simpler to maintain articles and similarly not having to check a half dozen to see if they're consistent; as well as avoiding unnecessary duplication of effort). I don't see how a little table of council members (information which can already be deduced rather easily from the election results tables), mostly non-notable local politicians, warrants keeping these as is.
 * If we applied that same logic to UK or Scottish parliamentary constituencies - if they have the same issues, namely being mere statistical dumps with little to no encyclopedic coverage (as opposed to routine "X and Y were elected in Z ward", which is not significant coverage of either the politicians or of the ward), then, yes, as I was saying, they warrant the same treatment: Wikipedia is not a database and this is probably one of those areas (like with all those thousands upon thousands of sports "biographies") where being a bit more rigourous wouldn't hurt. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to Wards of Fooshire overview: There is a recent (still ongoing?) discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom regarding the validity of UK ward articles. The current preference seems to be to merge the wards for every Scottish council (not picking on Dundee specifically) into a single overview, i.e Wards of Dundee where the results, representatives and summary information could be kept, negating the issue of keeping 354 wards which are little more than stubs, but leaving the council overview uncluttered when it otherwise could become bloated (e.g there are 20+ wards in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Fife, North Lanarkshire and South Lanarkshire). I will try and knock up a draft for one of the smaller councils over the next few days to show how it would look. Crowsus (talk) 22:47, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've started working on a draft page for Wards of Dundee at User:KeyKing666/sandbox/Wards of Dundee. Still working on it but its a start! KeyKing666 (talk) 13:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge. I agree with 's proposal above for a single article covering wards for each council. There's not enough to be said about most individual wards to justify an article that meets notability requirements. Any information that could go in a wards article could be included in a wards of... article or in a council election article. This applies for Dundee and all other council areas! Ralbegen (talk) 13:02, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to form a new page: Wards of Dundee. I do like @Crowsus' idea of having one page dedicated instead of the eight individual pages. I was having a think and I did strongly oppose however if we had a separate page dedicated to the eight wards, then you could keep the tables of councillors on each of the ward pages and add them. I'd happily go with that if this was something you think would be good? KeyKing666 (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I have now knocked up a few drafts using Renfrewshire as the example:
 * User:Crowsus/sandbox/Wards of Renfrewshire‎ uses the maps put together by Draqueeb, the councillor tables by Draqueeb and a few others, the brief territorial descriptions mostly added by me, and transcluded tables of results from the relevant local election pages, condensed within a collapsible table. I quite like how this looks, but I'm aware hidden content is discouraged for accessibility and/or display reasons (?), so...
 * User:Crowsus/sandbox/Wards of Renfrewshire no collapsed‎ is the same but with no collapsed content - the tables are still transcluded but now fully visible. I think most would agree this is simply too much content on a single page to be much use, it just goes on and on - although because of the way the coding works, it is actually a slightly smaller pagesize (48k v 50k) than the hidden tables version.
 * User:Crowsus/sandbox/Wards of Renfrewshire no election‎ is smaller and cleaner still - it does not display the election results at all, instead I have amended the year links in the councillor tables to point to each ward in each election (not all of these jumps work at present, particularly for 2007, if this format was accepted I would make sure they were going to the right place). This version kinda keeps the focus on the wards themselves rather than the election results, but it is no longer a single point of reference for everything to do with the ward, unlike the hidden tables version; if a reader want the results they will have to click elsewhere. I would say that even this less detailed version would appear to be too much content to add to any Xshire Council overview article and would still need its own Wards of article - Renfrewshire's 12 wards is pretty much an average total over the country, there would be smaller ones but a few quite a bit larger. Let me know what you think - maybe on the Politics discussion to keep them in one place (I've listed the drafts there too) and avoid clogging up an AfD? Crowsus (talk) 03:26, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Merge per Crowsus. I'm all for having Wikipedia articles about wards with substantial history, or controversial/notable events, but these articles appear to be about recently created electoral areas with information that is better placed/already located elsewhere. Sionk (talk) 11:33, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * As Crowsus suggested, I have created a "Wards of Dundee" draft page in my own sandbox at User:KeyKing666/sandbox/Wards of Dundee as many now seem to agree that the above singular ward pages should be merged into one. What do you think? KeyKing666 (talk) 14:14, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Just copy pasting each article into there without resolving the "text which is a retelling of the stats tables below" or addressing the duplications between each is not a good way forward. Between the proposed options earlier something like User:Crowsus/sandbox/Wards of Renfrewshire no election would be more approriate IMHO. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:46, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In terms of the actual content, to be honest it still needs a lot of work. The issue remains that the only written content for each ward is a prose description of the info already in the councillors tables, and as this merge is the most basic kind by having each existing article copied over in its entirety, a lot of the stuff in each section is duplicated unnecessarily. And there is the matter of how the election summaries should be displayed: this draft shows the coding from the election articles in full, but alternatively these could be hidden (either way the tables should be transcluded) or not shown at all - I think that is something that should be decided upon for all the councils before we press on with the merging. But to give participants an idea of what these overviews could visually appear like, fair enough. Crowsus (talk) 17:07, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge all into the relevant council article or a list of wards. Stifle (talk) 11:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge. Dundee has a smaller electorate than Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, so has a slightly different status. On the other hand, if wikipedians have local knowledge of Scotland, that can be helpful for possible draft content. Mathsci (talk) 09:43, 19 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.