Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Durham Saints


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Spartaz Humbug! 18:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Durham Saints

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Football club with little or no claim of notability Wuh  Wuz  Dat  17:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC) Merge with University of Durham, sport section. The same should be done with all other British American footabll university teams. The university football and rugby teams dont have pages and they are far greater in terms of participation and interest at UK universities. Notability should not be assumed on the basis that US college teams would have pages, as college football is far more significant than any form of University sport (except perhaps for the boat race?) in the UK. Petepetepetepete (talk) 18:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Wuhwuzdat and I were both taking this to AfD at the same time; WWD beat me to the punch. Here's the rationale from my duplicate AfD "I declined the speedy on this because there's a weak claim of importance (reached playoffs in a league of unclear notability). However, notability isn't obvious, so I think this would benefit from more eyes. On the keep side, we have the argument that this is a team participating in a national league. On the delete side, we have a lack of reliable sources showing notability. In the middle, we could merge to University_of_Durham or British Universities American Football League. "-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  18:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  18:03, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge per User:Petepetepetepete.. American football is not widely followed in the UK. The national league (if there is one), is probably only just notably enough to be included. University teams in the UK are completely un-notable in the way US teams would are. Martin 4 5 1  (talk) 18:26, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - pretty much every other club in the BUAFL has a page, there is no reason why Durham Saints should be any different! Especially as they have been more successful than some of the others, including having one of the top TD scorers in the entire league last year! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.234.155.217 (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * So other stuff exists. I think we should be merging or deleting all of them. Pfainuk talk 19:00, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge or Delete - The UK does not have the college sports culture that the US has. Most university sports teams and leagues are very little followed by anyone who isn't actually involved.  Coupled with the fact that American Football is distinctly a minority sport in the UK (and even the American Football fans we do have tend to follow the NFL), we can't reasonably assume notability.  This article - along with those of most other BUAFL teams - does not demonstrate any kind of notability.  Unless there is clear evidence of notability in the normal way (and generally there is not) they should all be deleted. Pfainuk talk 19:00, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd add: this may be a national league, it's true, but that does not, in and of itself, make the team notable, particularly when there are no reliable sources. Bear in mind that it is not the national league - that's the British American Football League - rather it's a league that happens to play nationally. Pfainuk talk 19:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete unless anyone can find a suitable merge or redirect target. No university sports team is Durham in professional, BUAFL is not the highest level of amateur sport, and they don't have independent coverage in third party sources. And yes, if the other clubs in BUAFL are like this page, they should be deleted too. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 19:09, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The precedent for these pages has been set by the existence of others, for example Newcastle Raiders and UT Cougars. The argument that the team is not professional is invalid, no American college team is, therefore, are their pages invalid? Affiliation with BUAFL is the highest rank of recognition of University American Football in the UK, a requisite link proving the affiliation can be added. Questioning the validity of the league is absurd, as BUAFL has a page on Wiki, and has been running alongside BAFA under its various guises for over 25 years. Also, proposing to delete a site an hour after it is created surely does not allow any progression that would allow it to be improved? Rjboro790 (talk) 19:56, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, match reports of the team are reported in the Durham Student Paper, The Palatinate, and links to these can be provided to verify scores or statements on the website. The claim that no other Durham student sports team has a Wiki page is also untrue, see: Durham University Centre of Cricketing Excellence, Durham University Boat Club. Rjboro790 (talk) 20:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC) — Rjboro790 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Wuh  Wuz  Dat  19:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The precedent for notability is not set by which other articles exist on Wikipedia - it is set by guidelines for notability that were discussed at length and consensus reached, which in the case of sportspeople is WP:ATHLETE. The highest level of amateur sports usually means the level of the Olympics or World Championships. (These guidelines are for individuals and not team so they can be relaxed a little for teams, but not that much, in my opinion.) Substantial coverage from independent third-party reliable sources can count towards notability instead, but it needs to be a lot lot more than match reports in a student newspaper. So, like it or not, the majority of university-level sports teams do not qualify for individual articles on Wikipedia. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 23:17, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment I propose that all the other University American Football team pages be afd and treated on a case-by-case basis following the result of this. I find it hard to see how any of them satisfy WP:GNG. Petepetepetepete (talk) 20:13, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as failing the notability criteria. Nothing in the 220 or so unique GHits comes close to non trivial coverage in independent reliable sources. Nuttah (talk) 20:37, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Article about a minority sport, participating in a minority sector. American Football has a microscopic following in the UK. Similarly university/college sports teams in the UK have next to no following beyond those actively involved in participating in the teams.  Isn't the precedent of this articles such as Wales University Lampeter Darts Club? Pit-yacker (talk) 13:50, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete no evidence of notability at all. NBeale (talk) 23:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.