Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edgar Sulite


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Fabrictramp (talk) 00:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Edgar Sulite

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Thoroughly non-notable founder of a thoroughly non-notable martial art (also being AFD'ed). Lack of sources for only (exceedingly minor) claim of notability. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC) 
 * Delete. Unremarkable martial arts teacher, no broader claim to notability. KleenupKrew (talk) 10:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. http://www.bakbakan.org/Memorial.html demonstrates notability for the person, given that the organisation, Bakbakan International is notable.  In addition, plenty of other reliable sources exist.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Keeper   |   76   |   Disclaimer  17:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete nn per WP:BIO. Eusebeus (talk) 23:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.   -- Fabrictramp (talk) 17:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong keep highly notable and influential martial arts instructor. Try a search on Amazon for his name ; not just books and DVDs by him but he features prominently in numerous books on the Filipino martial arts. JJL (talk) 00:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, if he were that notable why are there virtually no Google News hits for him? He shows up in some books on martial arts, and he made a lot of books and videos (which incidentally doesn't necessarily say anything about his notability. From WP:NB:

"A book's listing at online bookstores such as Barnes & Noble.com or Amazon.com is not by itself an indication of notability as both websites are non-exclusionary, including large numbers of vanity press publications. There is no present agreement on how high a book must fall on Amazon's sales rank listing (in the "product details" section for a book's listing) in order to provide evidence of its notability, vel non."

Lameco eskrima does not seem to be a major school, and being mentioned by books about Filipino martial arts is not, in my opinion, enough to establish notability. I would say that to be notable he would have had to have made a major impact on the practice of eskrima. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Have you reviewed any of those books, such as Masters of the Blade or any of the general/history books by noted author Mark V. Wiley (such as  Filipino Martial Culture)? They would provide teh answer to your question. I own several of those books and can attest to Edgar Sulite's noted influence. Also, have you checked martial arts news sources such as Black belt magazine? They are more relevant than Google News here (which is another questionable source; see WP:GHITS). JJL (talk) 12:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I just checked Black Belt, they don't mention him. I don't have ready access to the books available--if you do could you put some relevant information into the article? What I'd really like to see is the wider impact Sulite has had outside of his own school. Also, do we have any estimate on the number of practitioners of Lameco Eskrima?

Hello I am a new member here and I would like to comment on this attempt to delete both Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite and Lameco Eskrima from Wikipedia.

Are you kidding me with this??? Seriously let`s look at this great mans contributions to the Indigenous Filipino Warrior Arts both directly and indirectly. Edgar G. Sulite wrote three best selling books Internationally and had the best selling video series produced through Curtis Wong Enterprises (Inside Kung-Fu) for years. Even 11 years after his death his books and videos are still in demand.

Edgar G. Sulite has trained and is qualified to teach under some of the most noteworthy and combat proven Masters in 20th century Filipino history. He is a direct student and a certified Master in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia under Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. He was one of the 5 pillars of Kalis Illustrisimo and a direct student and certified Master of Kalis Illustrisimo under Grand Master Antonio "Tatang" Illustrisimo. He was a certified instructor under the very well respected and feared "Juey go todo" champion Manong Jose D. Caballero of De Campo uno-Dos-Tres Orihinal. In writing his last book he traveled to numerous remote locations across the Philippines to interview, train with and document the histories of so many, at that time living legends, of the Filipino Warrior Arts who are sadly no longer with us, which is such a huge contribution to our community in and of itself. Had he not documented their histories we would have lost so much had they taken their individual experiences with them to the grave. Because of the efforts of Edgar G. Sulite we have documented personal information and personal experiences of these great warriors in their own words.

Edgar Sulite was also instructor to Dan Inosanto, Bruces Lees best friend and successor to Jeet Kune Do. As well Edgar G. Sulite was an instructor to Larry Hartsell, another Bruce Lee student who trained with all of the legends at Bruce Lees China town school in Los Angeles. Edgar G. Sulite was also an instructor to such noted Filipino Warrior Art persoanlities such as: Christopher Ricketts, Ray Floro, Marc Denny (Dog Brothers), Steve Grody, Ron Baliki and Burt Richardson to name only a few, all of whom have created major succes for themselves and regard his instruction to be very influential to their success.

We currently have Lameco Eskrima students in more than 25 countries on 5 continents. As well Edgar G. Sulites Lameco Eskrima has been taught to our own Elite U.S. Special Operations Soldiers ranging from Navy S.E.A.L`s, Green Beret`s, Black Op`s and Marine forced Recon as well as U.S. Friendly Foreign Spec. Op`s soldiers in various foreign countries. I have taught numerous Special Operations Soldiers in the art of Lameco Eskrima for more than a decade and I currently have numerous students fighting in both Iraq and Afganistan where they are from time to time required to utilize these skills for survival.

Edgar Sulite was also a Body guard of President Marcos, General Estrada and General Ver of the philippines during the late 80`s before and during the Filipino coup which eventually forced President Marcos to flee and go into exile in Hawaii until he died there. Edgar G. Sulite was also the instructor to Filipino action star Roland Dantes and frequently trained actio star Ronnie Ricketts in addition to assuming numerous "Bad guy" roles in several films in the Philippines.

So to say that Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite is "Not Notable" and that Lameco Eskrima is not an "influencial" system is an insult. My advice to Tall Napoleon is to do your research before you slander someones good name and reputation. Edgar G. Sulite is as real as you get and anyone would be estatic to have a portion of the pedigree that he does. I say that both Edgar G. Sulite and Lameco Eskrima should be kept as is on wikipedia and if people have a problem with his articles than I will personally take a look at them and with the assistance of my Lameco Eskrima brothers edit where necessary.

Guro Dave Gould www.LamecoEskrima.org


 * Hi Dave,


 * It’s great to have new and passionate contributors. Be warned however, that contibututors often have difficulties when contributing on a subject for which they have special knowledge.  The inclusion criteria are not based on how you might understand the wor d “notable”.  Ideally, a wikipedia article is a synopsis of other, independently published works.


 * The best thing you could do at this stage is to find some independent publications, newpapers, other peoples books, etc, reviewing, discussing or commenting on Guro Edgar G. Sulite and Lameco Eskrima. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - per nom. This article lacks reliable sources, as the books listed are all out of print. Tnxman307 (talk) 15:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't understand how whether they are in print or not matters. JJL (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Books not in print are harder to get a hold of and therefore harder to cite. That said if someone can actually find copies I don't think it's a problem so long as they meet sourcing guidelines. TallNapoleon (talk) 05:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong Keep Edgar G. Sulite has been referenced and acknowledged in numerous books written by noted authors, International Magazines and video tapes featuring some of the most noteworthy experts in their specific field of expertise.

Steve Tarani acknowledged the contributions made by Edgar G. Sulite in his book "The Naked Edge" (Unique Publications 2002). He credits Edgar G. Sulite`s influence in directly furthering Mr. Tarani`s career in teaching elite Law enforcement officers which include Agents and Special Agents with the F.B.I., C.I.A., D.E.A., D.O.J., Dept. of homeland defense, correction officers and local Law Enforcement. Steve Tarani is also a fire Arms and tactical weapon Instructor for "Quantico" F.B.I. academy as well as an Instructor for "Gunsite".

Author Mark v. Wiley acknowledges and features Edgar G. Sulite in his book "Filipino Martial Culture" (Tuttle 1996). He dedicates chapter 22 to Lameco Eskrima, Edgar G. Sulite and his profound influence on the Pilipino Warrior Arts community as a whole.

Author Reynaldo S. Galang acknowledges Edgar G. Sulite in his book "Warrior Arts of the Philippines" (Argee enterprises 2005). Master Rey Galang dedicates 25 pages of this book to Edgar G. Sulite and his accomplishments and achievements in the Pilipino Warrior Arts.

Author Reynaldo S. Galang acknowledges Edgar G Sulite in his book "Masters of the Blade" (Argee Enterprises 2005). In addition to Master Rey Galang numerous Masters featured in this book also contribute Edgar G. Sulites influence as being beneficial to their success and evolution in the warrior arts.

Edgar G. Sulite over many years has also been featured in numerous articles both here in the U.S. and abroad and has been given the honor of being placed on the cover of many of these Magazines including "Inside Kung-Fu" (I believe october 1995) and "Filipino Martial Arts" (CFW Enterprises January 2001).

Guro Dave Gould. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guro Dave Gould (talk • contribs) 23:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: That looks like a good start. I'm still not convinced--the lack of information from Google or Google News searches is what bothers me, and I'd be interested to know the level of influence, popularity or esteem some of these publications have. What I would recommend is that you provide a few weblinks to some of these if possible, and rewrite the article to more reflect his significance and the impact of his work, making sure to cite sources (especially if you have print sources not available online). Right now the article really doesn't do this. Furthermore, it might be appropriate to merge and redirect the Lameco Eskrima article to this page. Take a look at WP:N, WP:BIO and WP:Martial arts. Keep in mind the importance of maintaining WP:NPOV, especially when editing subjects with which you have personal involvement. Finally, assume good faith. I don't have anything against Mr. Sulite; I just was of the opinion that, based on the research I was able to do and the state of the article, he did not appear to meet notability guidelines. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment on Comment. It looks to me easily good enough for a *keep (for now)* for a new article.  I disagree with requiring Google or Google News searches as a necessary.  Any reliable publication, regardless of difficulty of accessibility, is good enough.  Advice regarding WP:NPOV (please maintain a neutral point of view), WP:N (wikipedia-"notability"), WP:BIO (wikipedia-"notability" indicators for people) and WP:Martial arts#Notability (never met this before) are good, but he shouldn’t have to work this hard to prevent deletion; he should expect help from experienced contributors.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment on Comment on Comment. I'd still like to see the article rewritten to incorporate those actual sources, since I don't really have access to them. However it sounds like Guro Gould has a lot of the works he mentioned and so it's probably easiest for him to integrate them. TallNapoleon (talk) 05:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I Agree. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I have the Wiley and Galang books and the comments above regarding them are accurate. Certainly, sourcing the article(s) would be beneficial. JJL (talk) 12:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.