Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edvin Hebovija


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep Dan Barrera, Mitch Chilson, Eric Kelly (fighter), Andy Wang, Honorio Banario, Roy Docyogen, Joe Abouata, Eddie Ng, and Kevin Belingon, and no consensus for the rest. I'm disinclined to delete an article based on this total mess. T. Canens (talk) 00:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related pages because none of these fighters pass WP:MMANOT either. I realize it's a long list, but it seemed better to put them in one list instead of opening many AfD discussions. Papaursa (talk) 04:34, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Dan Barrera
 * Mitch Chilson
 * Sean Alvarez
 * Eric Kelly (fighter)
 * Andy Wang
 * Mark Sangiao
 * Jacob Allman
 * Matt Andersen (fighter)
 * Honorio Banario
 * Dave Huckaba
 * Romie Aram
 * A Sol Kwon
 * Chris Barnett
 * Bryan Travers
 * Kevin Belingon
 * Dominique Robinson
 * David Avellan
 * Roy Docyogen
 * Chad Bannon
 * Marcelo Guidici
 * Joe Abouata
 * Jorge Evangelista
 * Eddie Ng
 * Radeem Rahman
 * Daniel Mashamaite
 * Soo Chul Kim


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Papaursa (talk) 04:34, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems strange to me that you would nominate lots of other fighters for a different reason than the first. I acknowledge there is a problem with MMA articles on WP, but these articles are not all worth deleting, and many of them should be kept via WP:GNG, even if they may not fulfill WP:MMANOT.  I'll list the ones I found some sources that might make them worth keeping.  For the rest, I'll strike and support deletion of them due to a lack of reliable sources qualifying them for WP:GNG (i.e. there are either no sources or they a sources with limited coverage, like MMA-fansites and Sherdog), or if there is only one source and it is too short/undetailed per WP:ONESOURCE.
 * Edvin Hebovija
 * Dan Barrera
 * Found some in-depth coverage of his fight with Ben Saunders in this BuddyTV article.
 * Barrera's loss against Saunders is also discussed briefly in this ESPN article.
 * Some biographical information on Barrera and quotations from him about an upcoming fight can also be found here
 * Mitch Chilson
 * Chilson's performance in a fight and his biography is covered in decent depth in this ESPN article.
 * Chilson's reputation as a famous fighter in Singapore is substantiated in this article.
 * Chilson is the main subject of this Reuters article, which certainly should qualify as in-depth coverage.
 * Sean Alvarez
 * Eric Kelly (fighter)
 * Kelly's bout with another fighter has some coverage in this article from the Saipan Tribune].
 * Kelly's biography is also covered in this article by Sports Unlimited and his fighting history is covered in an article here.
 * Kelly's general reputation as a fighter is also detailed in this Manila Bulletin article.
 * Andy Wang
 * BuddyTV conducted an exclusive interview with Wang after his elimination in recent tournament.
 * Two articles from the Taipei Times focusing on Andy Wang's performance in recent bouts: ,
 * Mark Sangiao
 * Jacob Allman
 * Matt Andersen (fighter)
 * Doug Anderson (fighter)
 * Anderson's position as a co-host on the Discovery Channel show Fight Quest is discussed in detail among several sources:, , , , ,
 * Honorio Banario
 * Banario is the headliner in several articles, and his bouts and status are discussed in detail by several sources, some of which are already in the article:, , ,
 * Dave Huckaba
 * Romie Aram
 * A Sol Kwon
 * Chris Barnett
 * Bryan Travers
 * Kevin Belingon
 * Dominique Robinson
 * David Avellan
 * Roy Docyogen
 * Docyogen is also a headliner of several articles, where his strategy and techniques are discussed:,.
 * Chad Bannon
 * Chad appears also have a history as a male model and an actor, but he does not reach notability for either of those qualifications, either.
 * Marcelo Guidici
 * Joe Abouata
 * One in-depth biography piece on Abouata in this article from nj.com.
 * Ben Lagman
 * Starred in an MTV show Bully Beatdown, but that kind of attribution belongs on the show's page. It doesn't merit its own page.
 * Jorge Evangelista
 * Eddie Ng
 * One in-depth piece from a newsblog via The Independent. The author of the piece seems be a professional writer given that he has done quite a lot of sports coverage for The Independent and elsewhere, so I think this is a viable source per WP:NEWSBLOG.
 * Radeem Rahman
 * Daniel Mashamaite
 * Soo Chul Kim
 * Leandro Issa


 * So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Phew, I'm beat from all those Google searches... I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 06:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 15:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - The following articles, which User:I Jethrobot fortunately took the time to research:
 * Dan Barrera
 * Mitch Chilson
 * Eric Kelly (fighter)
 * Andy Wang
 * Honorio Banario
 * Roy Docyogen
 * Joe Abouata
 * Eddie Ng
 * These articles appear to pass WP:GNG.
 * — Northamerica1000 (talk) 20:33, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete all, except redirect Barrera and Wang to their TUF articles None of these fighters meet the requirements at WP:MMANOT and if they're not notable as fighters, then what are the notable for? The articles mentioned above tend to be of the "so and so will be fighting at ..." or "so and so fought at x" type.  None of them seem to be the significant coverage required by WP:GNG.  They're more of the press release or routine sports reporting variety.  Also, Papaursa, would you please make the lists a little shorter next time? Mdtemp (talk) 18:18, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note, the references I provided above are not at all like this. None are press releases, and go beyond simple "so and so will fight so and so." I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 18:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment - Regarding !vote from User:Mdtemp above: which part of the essay WP:MMANOT are you referring to? Northamerica1000 (talk) 21:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments First, I admit I may have gotten carried away with the number of articles listed--sorry. I Jethrobt, I didn't change my reasons--all of the articles are listed because they don't meet WP:MMANOT.  The notability section for fighters says they should have "Fought for the highest title of a top tier MMA organization" or "Fought at least three (3) fights for top tier MMA organizations."  Those are clear, objective standards, especially when there is a list of top tier organizations given.  In addition, WP:MMA says "Should a fighter not fulfil this criteria, it is unlikely that they warrant an article on wikipedia."  I looked at some of the references given and I agree with Mdtemp's assessment.  For example, when I clicked on the articles for Docyogen I got a "404 error" and a 6 line article covering the results of all 10 fights on the card--hardly substantial coverage "where his strategy and techniques are discussed."  The blog on Eddie Ng claimed that after 4 bouts for a small MMA circuit in England, appearing on the undercard of a new organization showed he "is set to become an MMA superstar."  The articles on Wang were "Andy Wang prepares for MMA Battle" tonight followed by "Zoro stops Andy Wang".  Those sound like exactly like the kinds of articles Mdtemp referred to.  Anyway, this comment ran far longer than I'd planned.  I'm not going to argue point by point over every fighter--every editor is entitled to their opinion.  I simply don't see how any of these fighters meet the objective criteria given at WP:MMANOT. Papaursa (talk) 23:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You decided to nominate all of them for deletion. You can't just point to a few and say "these are no good" and then assume that the rest must be as well.  It doesn't make sense to me that you would nominate all of them and then dismiss all of the ones I support keeping because you find fault with three of them.  I took the time to go through all 20+ of your candidates.  Why couldn't you go through mine?  WP:MMANOT is not the only notability criteria anyway, so I'm not sure why you arguments for deletion focus exclusively on it.  Allow me rebut the criticisms above.
 * Roy Docyogen - The other piece which 404s for you does not 404 for me. Here is an archived page.
 * Eddie Ng - You call it a blog, but it still from a reputable news source, and should be treated as such per WP:NEWSBLOG. It is outside the realm of routine coverage.
 * Andy Wang - These two articles cover the fight in much greater depth than is typical of fight reports. They should not be treated as "routine" one-or-two sentence coverage of many others in this list.  There is also an independent interview of Wang that is outside of typical coverage as well. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 00:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I did go through all of them before I nominated them. I can't vouch for what any other editor does.  I took the ones you mentioned because user Northamerica1000 mentioned the same ones you did.  I just checked again on the Roy Docyogen article and it didn't 404, but all it says it that he's fighting on next week's card--nothing about his tactics, etc.  Even if the one source is good, I still don't see Ng's notability.  As I said, each editor is entitled to their own opinion and I appreciate anyone who cares enough to do a thorough check (as you clearly did). Papaursa (talk) 00:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment, it appears that Honorio Banario, Eric Kelly, Roy Docyogen, and Kevin Belingon are currently all title holders in the Universal Reality Combat Championship (URCC) organization, which is the most significant MMA organization in the Philippines. Given that the org has been around since 2002 and promoted 37 events, it can reasonably be considered a notable second tier organization. I am inclined to see those pages beefed up with references than see them deleted. Osubuckeyeguy (talk) 06:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Chad Bannon as he is known not only as an MMA, but also as an actor and model. Am86 (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean he is notable. It is hard to argue notability when his resume highlights are roles like "Beefy Guy" and "Burly Cop." The playgirl photospread and short adult film career mentions are essentially porncruft. Nothing here suggests he passes WP:GNG. Osubuckeyeguy (talk) 19:12, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment I added two sources to the Dave Huckaba page. Entity of the Void (talk) 00:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Dave Huckaba he's fought in ShoXC, Palace Fighting Championship and Shark Fights. Entity of the Void (talk) 01:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Great work by I Jethrobot. Keep those he found coverage for.   D r e a m Focus  01:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Also should keep those which are part of the Universal Reality Combat Championship as mentioned by Osubuckeyeguy. It seems notable in that nation.   D r e a m Focus  21:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Keep all. Indiscriminate mass nomination as pointed out above. --143.105.13.115 (talk) 20:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete all, except for Banario, Kelly, Docyogen, and Belingon I think you could reasonably argue that all of the fighters on the list fail to meet notability criteria. The four I think should be kept are because they're getting coverage, although not enough to meet WP:GNG, and they're unbeaten champions of what I think will soon be labeled as a second tier organization.  I'm going to ignore WP:CRYSTALBALL and think they'll soon be picked up by a top tier organization. Astudent0 (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, no one called it an indiscriminate mass nomination and no one else has suggested they're all notable (or even close to it). Papaursa (talk) 04:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep all per User:Dream Focus. Verifiable content of interest to readers is encyclopedic.  Period.  --173.241.225.163 (talk) 22:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Dream Focus didn't support keeping all the articles. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 00:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Renominate a selection it is clear at least a number of these are notable and sorting through them all is a mire. JORGENEV 07:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That would a waste of time for all the editors who have already gone through these articles. It looks like people have generally settled on agreeing with I,Jethrobot. Astudent0 (talk) 19:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep all that are verifiable by MMAFighting and/or Sherdog. --131.123.123.124 (talk) 15:28, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You, or another IP from Cleveland, made this point at a previous AfD. The question is notability, not whether or not they're MMA fighters. Astudent0 (talk) 19:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Keep all. Indiscriminate mass nomination as pointed out above. For instance Radeem Rahman has been the subject of an article in pretty much every single major newspaper in Singapore. Here's an interview with him in Time Out Magazine for instance These fighters should be discussed individually and not thrown in indiscriminately together.Sadoka74 (talk) 06:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He's had one MMA fight. The population of Singapore is 1/4 that of the New York City urban area, so I don't think being a notable MMA fighter in Singapore is, in itself, notable.  Keeping all of the the articles would be a slap in the face to all of the editors who've bothered to research them so far.  Even Papaursa admits he made too large a nomination, but that shouldn't negate all of the work done by everyone. Mdtemp (talk) 16:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep all of those for which sources have been presented above confirming they have been covered reliably. Good work to those who looked for and found sources!  --The Bachmann Editor Overdrive (talk) 17:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Again, my apologies for getting carried away with the length of this list and my thanks to everyone, especially I,Jethrobot, for their efforts. Although I don't agree with all of them, I would summarize the discussion this way:  Keep Dan Barrera, Mitch Chilson, Eric Kelly (fighter), Andy Wang, Honorio Banario, Roy Docyogen, Joe Abouata, Eddie Ng, and Kevin Belingon, but Delete the rest. Papaursa (talk) 18:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.