Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edward Vinatea


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 00:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Edward Vinatea

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Fails notability guidelines at WP:MUSIC. Few sources could be found of the individual, and none of the references cited in the article even mention Vinatea's name. – Dream out loud (talk) 20:13, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep The subject is a mastering guy who has mastered award nominated artists. I don't understand how how he fails the WP:MUSIC. Just on Geri_King and Cindy_Blackman he meets that criteria. We have other Wikipedia bio articles with mastering engineers so this is not the first. Jrod2 (talk) 20:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - Yes, this guy fails WP:MUSIC because he's not a musician, but he passes WP:CREATIVE. § FreeRangeFrog 20:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments: A question to user FreeRangeFrog, if a person involved in the production process like for a example a producer or a mastering engineer, who is responsible for the post-production of a commercial product that appeared on music charts, doesn't tjhis qualify for WP:MUSIC? I say this because his artist CD Geri King had a hit called "Deja Vu" which stayed 30 weeks in the Australian top 40. If so, doesn't this fulfill the WP:MUSIC criteria? I just want to make sure for future submissions. Thanks in advance for the reply. Jrod2 (talk) 21:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, charting on a "sovereign country" (as per the WP:MUSIC definition) is grounds for inclusion. § FreeRangeFrog 23:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  -- the wub  "?!"  23:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - many people help in the creation of music, but that doesn't make them notable. Where are the reliable sources writing about him?  I searched, and they don't exist. -- Whpq (talk) 14:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note - As an additional note, the claim to notability appeards to be that he ws the mastering engineer on some hit albums. If his work is notable, then one would expect to see his work as an engineer nominated for a Grammy.  If he won one, or was nominated for one, I was unable to uncover it. -- Whpq (talk) 14:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wrong assumption, mastering engineers don't get a Grammy or anything when one of their artists is nominated. However if one wins it, the mastering engineers only gets a Citation by the Recording Academy, but not the actual Grammy. A mastering engineer can win a Grammy award only if he is nominated specifically as an engineer. There is no question that this engineer is notable for working with big names in the industry, at least Discogs confirms several works. Unless of course, Discogs data base is consider worthless at WP which would be news to me.Jrod2 (talk) 17:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Discogs is actually worthless as a source for establishing notability. Working with notable artists doesn't make this person notable.  If he is notable, then there should be recognition of it in the form of some articles or industry awards.  As for the Grammy awards, there are specific awards for engineering so I am unclear on what your statement with respect to the Grammies means. -- Whpq (talk) 17:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply  - Any Grammy nomination to an artist reflects the work of the mixing engineer, producer and mastering engineer. There are specific Grammy nominations for engineering that also receive no notoriety. And, yes it's considered admissible to prove notability (See Ashley Altman (#6) for best Pop singer 2006  and Geri King song "To Whom is concerned" on the same Ashley Altman album  CD mastered by Vinatea (#569). If Discogs is a worthless data base, then close to a quarter of all Wikipedia musicians will get deleted, so start doing just that. Jrod2 (talk) 17:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply - Notability is not inherited. Yes, they have participated in the creation of the work.  And they are given credit.  But if there was tru notability, why isn't there a nomination for a grammy for the engineering work?  Why is there no write-up in some industry magazine?  I fail to see what the PDF proves. -- Whpq (talk) 18:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The PDF proves that his work has contributed to a 2006 Grammy nomination and again, that credit is not listed on the NARAS' year nominations book, only the artist is. If you can't rely on Discogs, would you like to see a scan of that major label distributed album? Jrod2 (talk) 18:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply - A scan is not required. At issue is not the fact that he is the mastering engineer.  At issue is whether being the mastering engineer is notable.  Evidence of this notability would be significant articles written about him, or significant awards conferred on him.  I see neither of these. -- Whpq (talk) 18:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You asked "if there was tru notability, why isn't there a nomination for a grammy for the engineering work?" Again, that is an specific category, but not the only way of acquiring a Grammy nomination credit. Unfortunately, there isn't any interest by the media in listing nominations; only winners get an article on all regular media channels. But, that NARAS book I've just included is the only official publication and the only one that can be used for verification anyway. Hope that answers. Jrod2 (talk) 18:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - So let me recap. (1)  Nobody has written anything about Edward Vinatea.  Not even industry publications.  (2)  He has not been nominated for a Grammy award for any of his engineering work.  Is that correct?  -- Whpq (talk) 18:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply There are thousands of engineers that have received write ups on many publications, but they have never had, as a result of their work, an artist nominated for a Grammy. We need to look into the engineer's body of work first and not whether magazines are writing about the subject or not. The proof is on those NARAS book pages include above and you can easily connect the dots. Finally, an engineer doesn't need to be specifically nominated for a Grammy to be part of the Grammy nomination process. If the artist he produced or mastered wins a Grammy, he gets a citation not the trophy. That said, what needs to be examined is whether nominations are sufficient merit to include engineers in biography articles, period (just like the criteria for inclusion of a musician is to have a charting record). Jrod2 (talk) 19:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply - I think this discussion has progressed as far as it can go without retreading the same path again. I remain unconvinced. -- Whpq (talk) 19:28, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply This discussion does not anyone's convictions, but facts. I am sorry, I should have done this from the beginning to avoid clogging the thread, I apologize. Here are some credits I found on |VINATEA&sql=11:gvfpxqy0ldfe~T4 AllMusic.com which is another source we use to verify references . Hopefully the rest will agree that this is sufficient info about this subject to establish notability. Jrod2 (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hers fold  (t/a/c) 19:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak delete - borderline-ly not quite notable enough. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 20:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: insufficient independent 3rd party coverage. JamesBurns (talk) 00:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments |VINATEA&sql=11:gvfpxqy0ldfe~T4 AllMusic.com is a source we use to verify music per WP:MUSIC. This is an engineer who has clearly worked on records that resulted on a 2 music Grammy award nominations. Engineers can only be evaluated according to who they work with unlike their musicians. FWIW, If we stop using Allmusic.com and/or award nominations then how are we going to assess the importance of engineers? Write ups? Oh please, anybody can get one. It's also known that some engineers shy away from interviews and public relations. In my opinion, *articles* or the lack of them should not be the deciding factor to verify notability. Jrod2 (talk) 03:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I am a client of this masttering engineer so maybe it's not apprpriate of me to vote, but If I can comment, I can say that without a doubt this is a notable engineer who as far as I know works with independent musicians as well as famous artists. It's true, engineers also get a nomination reference from the recording academy when their artists get nominated. Why his nominations not be enough to establish his notability? As freerangefrog said he meets what's required to include his biography. So if I can vote, I vote. KEEP. Stefan Tischler (talk) 15:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC) — Stefan Tischler (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.