Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/El Shahbaa


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. General consensus to keep. (non-admin closure) SST flyer 08:15, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

El Shahbaa

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Not very convinced that this mare has notability. Greek Legend (talk) 07:18, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * keep I rescued this from speedy deletion and there were several online magazine pieces with some mention. Since this mare was from many decades back I think we can also assume there would have been print media as well. I would therefore recommend keep. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:09, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Egypt-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:05, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly Neigh 14:59, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Several high-quality sources come up on just a regular Google search; Google books, print books and breed magazines should have fairly broad coverage. In response to below:
 * That's pretty laughable. You can't just say that Google gives you hits without even reading what you're trying to use. Please look at those links and you tell me where it even mentions the horse in question, let alone gives more than a passing mention. I don't think arabianheritagesource.com is reliable, either. You and are both guilty of alleging and not reading. I actually read sources.  Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 21:11, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter that you can't SEE the mention; it's in the book. It says, "5 pages matching El Shahbaa in this book" and that is proof enough. Just because it's on snippet view so people can't copy-paste it and claim it as their own work doesn't mean it isn't in there. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 21:19, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The coverage is certainly substantial. For this topic there is no reason to doubt reliability. The sources are print magazines which are beyond blogs in reliability. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Insufficient references to make a claim of notability. As Graeme Bartlett says "several online magazine pieces with some mention which isn't enough, in my opinion. Take a look at this and this. They're just mere mentions. All the remaining stuff google shows are unreliable websites. Let's see White Arabian Filly's "several high quality sources" because I don't think they exist. I don't see value in keeping this article. If there are other print sources out there someone else can create a new article when they find them, which they probably never will. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 16:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Animal-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:03, 28 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep: Pinging  who has a plethora of hardcopy sources to comment also.  Inshass Stud was a major Arabian breeding operation in its time.  Judith Forbis is a major scholar of the Egyptian-bred Arabian, and Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse is a respected organization.  This is a foundation mare of an important breeding line, classed as Al Khamsa; the article will never be terribly extensive because not a lot is known about her, but she adequately meets the indicia of notability for a horse within the Arabian breed.   Montanabw (talk)  16:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC) Follow up: I'm doing a little bit of research (my books are at home, I'm at work, and I don't have the reference works on the Egyptian lines, but I'll dig, I do have the Raswan Index). She is listed among the foundation horses by the Al Khamsa organization here (click on INSHASS), which makes her one of only 198 horses granted this status.  "Only a mention" in these sources is sufficient.  This is not a human being, this is a horse, and her influence was due to the quality of her progeny and how rare her bloodlines are (she only had a single foal whose bloodlines carried on, the mare EL MAHROUSA). We now have at least three online sources that are high quality for equine bloodlines of this horse breed, and the excerpts that WAF provided that only exist in snippet view are additional scholarly works on these bloodlines. The article would benefit from expansion, but it meets GNG.   Montanabw (talk)  17:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * More: These horses from the 1920s and 1930s are hard to find info about, but this source shows that she was horse #12 in the Inshass herdbook, so more biographical verification that she was a significant foundation mare. This source [ link redacted Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC) (The Arabian Horse Families of Egypt by Colin Pearson and Kees Mol, 1988)] is a scan of a book by a respected scholar of Arabians and mentions her in brief on pages 124 and 151, providing additional data about her ancestry.  this is in French but another mention as a purebred bloodline (pinging  to translate); here is a mention in a German source (pinging  for a translation)  A few more mentions, showing that this bloodline is notable today and featured in news and advertising :, .  Montanabw (talk)  17:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Easily passes WP:GNG. El Shahba'a (الشهباء) is mentioned with her sire (حمداني or حمداني الناصري), dam (عبيه ام الجرسان or عبيه ام جريس), stud (مربط انشاص), date of birth and provenance (محمد ابراهيم الحاج of Cairo) in numerous sources including those mentioned above and:
 * this listing of the Inshass mares
 * Egypt's Arab Horses: History and Cultural Heritage by Erwin Adolf Piduch (1988)
 * ''The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog" by Jane Llewellyn Ott (1969)
 * Searching is made a little harder by the various uses of "Shahba'a", particularly as a description of Aleppo, and by the re-use of the name (without the definite article) for an apparently unrelated mare in the 1950s. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * More: "El Shaba" (note different – bad – transliteration) is described as "a mare that made history in Egyptian breeding" by Hans Joachim Nagel (2012). Type 4: 141–42. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organisms-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 10:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep passes WP:GNG as the book sources demonstrate. Atlantic306 (talk) 01:23, 31 March 2016 (UTC)


 * In the Straight Egyptian Breedig program, El Shahbaa have the biggest Influence today, her descendants are arround te World. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nalanidil (talk • contribs)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.