Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elena Baramova (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. This article needs a major re-write to be encyclopedic, and not read like a resume. No consensus to delete (non-admin closure) ( talk→  Bwilkins / BMW   ←track ) 06:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Elena Baramova
AfDs for this article: 
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Not notable, sings with a touring group, otherwise appears to be a cover (understudy) Vitellia (talk) 06:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete: I don't know if policies have become tighter or looser since 2006, but this article read like a very non-notable resume, with her own blog and press materials as references. Vitellia (talk) 06:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: Agreed. This looks like a page her agent would send a casting director to. --Muboshgu (talk) 13:06, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep: Needs a major rewrite, but shows notability to some extent. Her participation in Rijeka Belcanto 2006 is probably the strongest piece of evidence. She has also been interviewed by a Bulgarian newspaper. Chenzw    Talk   13:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep, as Chenzw points out, the article does indeed establish a certain notability. I've slapped a cleanup tag on the article. - Lilac Soul (talk • contribs • count) 14:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: This is the problem with resumes, they can be filled with non-notable stuff. If there was nothing notable to begin with, a cleanup is not going to make it notable.
 * I Googled Rejeka Belcanto because I'd never heard of it; it appears to be a cost-effective way to get singers to perform in the Rejeka opera house . This isn't even the Croatian National Theatre in Zagreb.
 * The Bulgarian newpaper looks like a fluff piece in an entertainment-listing magazine.
 * Also, out of all the "future" engagements listed, she has only one listing in Operabase, in a shared role in a local-level venue
 * Vitellia (talk) 15:01, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Addressing some of the issues in the first deletion discussion
 * 1. Her pictures don't show a young soprano with her career ahead of her (nor is there a birth date given). She looks like she's (was) in her 30's, which is a singer's vocal prime, and she has not achieved notability in the years since 2006.
 * 2. Simply her being an exotic Bulgarian is no reason for inclusion. I'm from an out of the way place too, but that's no reason for me to have an article in Wikipedia. In any case, Bulgaria has given opera a lot truly talented singers, who deservedly have Wikipedia articles - the only reason she came to my attention at all was from edits like this in Ghena Dimitrova's article. (In truth, dropping Ghena's name is rather damning for this singer, because Ghena was a popular soprano - if she had found any talent in her compatriot, she was in a position to open many doors, and this singer would not be working in a local touring company now.)
 * 3. She has never made a recording, nor has she ever been covered by any outside news source, and her record of engagements is very spotty - the only run looks like a tour in Japan, otherwise just single performances here and there in small venues.
 * Vitellia (talk) 18:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * When did Prague State Opera become a "small venue"? Rlendog (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Baramova's Prague reference shows her appearing once-off in a festival two years ago. This isn't notable. Vitellia (talk) 01:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: insufficient independent 3rd party sources WP:MUSICBIO. JamesBurns (talk) 08:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep: Elena Baramova is a very talented bulgarian soprano, thats why Ghena chose her from more than 500 singers, that took a part in the audition. To make an international career is not that easy nowadays. But Baramova is giving her best, singing in all Europe and Japan the dramatic roles of Turandot, Abigaille, Lady Macbeth..., and i am sure that she will have more and more succes.
 * Dear Vitellia, Elena Baramova is not working in a local touring company now!!!! For example Avenches Opera Festival, where Baramova sang Aida in summer 2007 is a stage with a world famous cast!! And her last Turandot at Opera de Massy, Paris Sud, the partner of Baramova was the famous italian tenor Nicola Martinucci...Hero7 (talk) 05:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Other editors have linked to the pages defining what is expected for notability; the Baramova article has nothing but press releases.
 * Vitellia (talk) 06:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment-The article is poorly written, but that does not make the subject non-notable. On the other hand, several of her roles, particularly performing them at Prague State Opera strongly suggest notability.Rlendog (talk) 22:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is written like a vague resume. Vitellia (talk) 02:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete Fails WP:MUSICBIO, standing on the stage with someone famous does not make you notable. -- E ivindt@c 17:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - WP:MUSICBIO seems more tailored to pop singers than to opera singers, but singing Abigaile in Nabucco and Turandot at Prague State Opera should satisfy notability, fitting within criterion #10 about as close as an opera singer can. Rlendog (talk) 22:39, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment
 * Actually those guidelines look good for opera singers (or any classical musician) - they don't get pushed on the Radio and TV like pop musicians, but they definitely get press coverage. They're not on the front page, but the "Arts" sections are there for those who follow classical music to turn to. A google search will bring up whatever's been written about them.
 * Also an opera singer (or classical musician) needs to have been recorded - they don't need to be "top 10", but they need to something out there for classical radio stations to play to promote their next appearance, if you want to call them notable.
 * Vitellia (talk) 00:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Addressing Baramova's appearances specifically, she has not performed any actual runs in Prague or anywhere else - just single performances here and there - even understudies in a proper run traditionally (but not always) get 2 performances, and that would not be notable. There is only one mention of her since Jan 2007 in Operabase, which is strange because even an understudy's performances would be recorded. The only place I can find where she is on any roster at all is at the local opera house in Stara Zagora, so presumeably she's a house singer there, which is also not notable. I think all the facts that can be provided on her career are already in the article (there's even less on the internet) - it would be hard to call this career very successful, much less notable, and rewriting her resume to look more encyclopedic will not make her any more notable.
 * Vitellia (talk) 01:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments about the criteria for notability for opera singers (and classical musicians in general):
 * Any half-way notable opera singer gets media coverage and critical reviews when they perform; you have to go to the Arts or Culture section in the newspaper. In Italy they may even get tabloid coverage.
 * They will have commercial recordings out. Their bread and butter is live performances, and for many, recordings are part of the publicity for their appearances.
 * Simply winning an award or a competition, even a very notable one like the Cardiff competition, while it is a career boost, isn't always a free ticket to future notability.
 * The analogy of #10 for opera singers would be to play a principle role in a new production, or to participate in a world or national premier of an opera, in a major venue.
 * Opera productions in major houses are performed in runs of perhaps a dozen performances over a period of time. A notable singer will be in the "first cast", in one of the principal roles, and sing a majority of performances in the run. They will almost always also sing in smaller venues, especially near their homes, but they will definitely have notable appearances in major houses. Covers (understudies) and house singers who take on secondary roles are rarely notable (although many people would say house singers are the most rewarding jobs in opera).
 * Simply being a professional classical musician, while impressive, does not make you notable.
 * Vitellia (talk) 03:31, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. Wikipedia is not a resume service. She might be notable enough for a Wikipedia article, but this is not it. It would be better to scrape clean and start anew with an article that actually reads like an encyclopedia article. B.Wind (talk) 04:50, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.