Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elfriede Motzkuhn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  17:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Elfriede Motzkuhn

 * — (View AfD)

This and other articles nominated are biographical entries about (alleged) concentration camp guards with no sources. They were subject to an earlier AfD Articles for deletion/Wilhelmina Sadrinna here and kept. Since then, our policies have moved much more towards deleting unsourced biographical articles like this (they could possibly even be speedied under CSD G10). Alleging that someone is a concentration camp guard is a serious matter, and it essential that articles like this should be sourced or deleted. Enchanter 23:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC) I am also nominating the following other pages on the same grounds:
 * Louise Nauth
 * Klara Opitz
 * Elisabeth Peschke
 * Therese Pichler
 * Gertrud Rabestein
 * Charlotte Rafoth
 * Elsa Rascher
 * Lieschen Rech
 * Anna Reischer
 * Hildegard Reiterer
 * Erna Rose
 * Wilhelmina Sadrinna
 * Friederike Schneider
 * Katja Schot

Please also discuss deletion of the articles below, bumped from speedy (note time of addition). —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-24 10:40Z 

Two more -- Samir धर्म 10:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete without sources, repercussions could be legal. I would quickly support keep if sources could be verified. --jaydj 00:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 'delete but for not notable. Some guards have been particularly horrible, or newsworthy otherwise, or used as examples in historical or biographical works, and if they have been discussed in several sources they should go in. I see no evidence of any of  that here. I would support ifsources showed her as specially notable. She was born in 1917. That would make her 89 years old, and I am not overly worried about biography of living persons. .DGG 00:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Concur with DGG. Even if they were sourced, would they be particularly notable?  --jaydj 03:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The biographies policy is not done just for legal reasons, but out of human decency. Whether someone is too old to sue is entirely irrelevant. Ken Arromdee 14:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Consolidate into one article to avoid the one paragraph stubs. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 05:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletions.  -- Kusma (討論) 09:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete if sources can't be found (Elfriede Motzkuhn has no non-Wikipedia mirror Google hits). If sources can be found, weak delete or merge for insufficient notability (as evidenced by verifiability problems). Kusma (討論) 10:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete all The articles do not present any sources to back up the statement that the subjects were Nazi concentration camp guards. It is Wikipedia policy that "Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." After the John Siegenthaler incident, we have tried to be careful to delete all articles or content in articles which contain defamatory material. If they are so notorious, then cite the books that document their crimes. Otherwise the articles are a clear violation of WP:BLP. Edison 15:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - These articles were created 2 years ago and if nobody has found a source in that time, it seems unlikely that they will any time soon. The IP who created them (see contributions ) is from a school district, but seems from their contributions to be a single individual with many good contributions.  Even so, regardless of WP:AGF, if an article (living person or otherwise) is unsourced and seems unlikely to ever be sourced, it doesn't belong here. Please see also, Articles for deletion/Wilhelmina Sadrinna, where most of these articles were previously nominated for deletion, but strangely closed as a no consensus, even though there was an obvious consensus that the articles didn't need to be there - the only question was whether to keep around a list of names or not. BigDT 15:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete &mdash; would appear to be `original research'. At any rate, a person is not notable simply for being a concentration camp guard (otherwise how many thousand biographies would we have to handle?); the article, moreover, states that she was neither arrested nor charged nor convicted of war crimes &mdash; probably because if she exists, and did what the articles says, she nonetheless didn't commit war crimes &mdash; guarding a camp isn't a war crime. But even mentioning the term `war crimes' in the article is disgusting, since it obliquely raises an entirely unfounded allegation in such a way as it is a non-allegation, but tacitly implies that she `got away with it' and is living somewhere happily, unpunished.  No, this is filth.  I haven't looked at the others, but trust they will be the same.  Delete the lot of them. Rosenkreuz 15:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete - also include Elisabeth Koorn, Suze Arts and Maria Luise Merkle. All of these were created by 68.248.199.3 which I think is a suspected sock puppet (can easily be checked - I have a good suspicion who it is - admin please contact me). All these names (several names) were created en-masse in a space of just several days in December 2004. All virtually unsourced and female nazi concentration camp guards. The tricky thing is, some real guards may have been mixed into it. At best, all these are sloppily researched (albeit with good intentions), at worst - these are hoaxes, bollocks published in wikipedia for whatever reasons. Technically they all fail verifiability, does not cite any source at all to check the facts, do not show up at all in various searches of holocaust websites (apart from Wiki entries) - if real do not meet notability, unsourced articles are anathema to WP:BIO and WP:LIVING policies making all of these wholly original research. In light of the blatant non-verifiability of these articles, the tightened wikipedia policies on biographies, and the possible use of these entries for Holocaust denial - I heartily recommend Speedy Delete if possible. Even if some of these guards are real, Wikipedia policy is clear on unsourced bio articles like these. Better NOT to have an article at all than an unsourced one.--Eqdoktor 08:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Additions to delete - Can you check the following for additions to delete. All were created by 68.248.199.3. All do not show up in searches of holocaust camp websites. Nothing shows that they exist outside of Wikipedia (and affiliated sites). All have rather fanciful writeups with no cites to external source. This is very harmful as 68.248.199.3 has weaved in a lot of these names to real concentration camp articles (Ravensbrück concentration camp especially), further confusing the situation and making a mess of the encyclopedia.


 * Elisabeth Koorn
 * Suze Arts
 * Maria Luise Merkle
 * Anna Fest - an egregious example - cites she wrote a book but Amazon.com and other sources do NOT list her as the author of "Frauen: German Women Recall the Third Reich"
 * Margarete Freinberger
 * Margarete Gallinat real guard
 * Else Grabner listed as a head guard but does not show up in any Ravensbruck list I can find
 * Ilse Goeritz
 * Susanne Hille
 * Hildegard Neumann real guard - found her

I believe the existence of these women are questionable (at the best non-notable, which is thin given that some are listed as head guards). Some are written as participating in real atrocities (Suze Arts), but further research of external sources do not show their involvement (Bunker Tragedy). Refer to my entry above for technical reasons why they should be deleted. --Eqdoktor 10:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Without sources, these articles fail almost all inclusion categories.   Buck  ets  ofg  20:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * comment Its educational scouring through obscure German documents trying to authenticate some of the names. I found another one thats real but its hard to justify a wikipedia entry for non-notable obscure guards. Check out the contributions of 68.248.199.3, on Dec 13, 2004, 27 bio articles were created alone - all female guards. Some may be real but I think more mass deletes should be done based on non-notability and non-verified facts. --Eqdoktor 18:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: added another list of personnel to this AFD, see above. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-24 10:41Z 


 * Delete all, including additions. Notability is non-trivial coverage in multiple sources.  I see only one source in Gertrud Heise among all the articles.  Possibly the camp heads are notable, but they are not properly sourced and should be removed per WP:BLP.  The article at Female guards in Nazi concentration camps has the appropriate level of detail, although unsourced statements about these subjects should be removed from there as well. - Aagtbdfoua 16:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.