Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elie Saab net dress of Halle Berry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Aoidh (talk) 04:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Elie Saab net dress of Halle Berry

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Delete per NOTNEWS. Barely passes GNG and is not notable outside of the 74th Academy Awards. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Fashion,  and Lebanon. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This conversation was already had about the page a long time ago, you can check in its history for the reasons why it was kept. Fashion is ephemeral, notability sometimes isn't clear cut. Computer-ergonomics (talk) 15:16, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia isn't for the ephemeral. Oaktree b (talk) 15:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the Oscars for that year, outside of the event, no lasting coverage. We only have a half-dozen lines of text, could be merged for all that is is. Oaktree b (talk) 15:23, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You mean the Academy Awards, right? As that is where the dress debuted. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You are aware of what a synonym is, right? -- Jayron 32 15:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Did not know that they are synonyms. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * See Oscars. You do now.  -- Jayron 32 16:02, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge to 74th Academy Awards. There's probably enough to merit mention at Wikipedia, but not likely enough to merit a stand-alone article.  -- Jayron 32 15:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not where red carpet fashion redirects to on Wikipedia. The articles for major awards shows do not have fashion sections Computer-ergonomics (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see anyone stopping you from adding that information. -- Jayron 32 12:20, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Red carpet fashion is much more tied to the fashion world than the award itself, so it would be inappropriate to merge dresses with awards shows. As far as I can tell, for over a decade this has been the agreed upon way that red carpet fashion has been dealt with on the website. For several years, fashion editors were making articles for both individual dresses and for entire awards seasons but that has not taken place recently. Not a lot of fashion editors are left on Wikipedia. Computer-ergonomics (talk) 17:47, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep The dress was literally featured in "The Complete Book of Oscar Fashion" as seen in the citations. There should probably be more outfits from that book on Wikipedia, not fewer.Computer-ergonomics (talk) 16:18, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just being in a specific book does not make it notable. Several quality sources are required, and this article barely passes that. Furthermore, the dress is completely non-notable outside of the Academy Awards. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparently it is currently in a museum. Computer-ergonomics (talk) 17:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, in 2016 ET called it one of the best Oscar dresses of all time
 * And Elie Saab said the dress put his name on the international market
 * The article is underwritten, there is a case for rewriting it. Computer-ergonomics (talk) 17:47, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would be fine with moving this to draftspace and letting you improve it. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm also okay with that. Computer-ergonomics (talk) 17:59, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Per sources marshalled by Computer-ergonomics. There's no need to move the article to draft space in order to improve it. Furius (talk) 00:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. I did expect to be voting delete when I saw the title, but passes WP:GNG due to:
 * 1) https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/a43281987/halle-berry-iconic-oscar-gown-now-on-display-academy-museum/
 * 2) https://emirateswoman.com/halle-berry-elie-saab/
 * 3) https://www.harpersbazaar.com/celebrity/latest/a43280071/halle-berry-iconic-oscar-gown-now-on-display-academy-museum/
 * 4) https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/halle-berry-oscars-dress-2002-b2298544.html
 * Plus many more, easily found by searching "elie saab" and "halle berry" on google news CT55555 (talk) 03:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep and expand Appears to have the sources for a fuller article and meet notability requirements. The article was started at a time that Jimbo Wales criticized the male bias of Wikipedia and said we should have hundreds of articles on dresses! ♦ Dr. Blofeld  19:26, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for mentioning it. I think it is always good to remember how certain we all seem of the notability of sports matches, every model of every car, every version of every iPhone operating system, every airplane type, every train type and how when it comes to topics less traditionally associated with male interests, we consider it tabloid, or intuitively not notable. CT55555 (talk) 19:30, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Fashion on Wikipedia is a dead zone in part because of the low number of women editors and in part because cis & trans non-women editors who have feminine interests have to worry their articles will be challenged for notability, even when they are well-sourced, which just happened to me with an article that had over a dozen reliable sources.Computer-ergonomics (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Exactly, though there was one editor I think who did a lot of good work on red carpet fashion. The ones I started were on some polls and ones I thought might have decent enough coverage, but some of them would probably be best merged into a Red carpet fashion in xx articles. This one appears to have had more coverage than some of the others. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  16:23, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note I mentioned this AFD in a related thread about gender and racial bias on Jimmy's talk page, without trying to canvass support here in case anybody says anything. I don't think this article was nominated because of a bias against women, and in the current state can understand why people would want to merge it.♦ Dr. Blofeld  19:48, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that the cis male editor bias on Wikipedia has prevented this article and others like it from expansion for over a decade. The entire reason that this got nominated was that the original poster voted to delete a recent article I created about Lil Nas X's pink suit, and when I said "this is not something that doesn't belong here, here's an example with fewer sources than this" the original poster nominated this one for deletion as well. This is despite the fact that there seems to be little expertise in fashion going on in this thread. Like, open suggestions to miscategorize the outfit, merge it where it doesn't belong, etc. The confident dismissal of fashion as something that is automatically trivial even when one knows very little about it is rooted in gender bias. There's entire books dedicated to famous articles of clothing, it's not about how there should be more random dresses on Wikipedia to combat sexism. It's because it's a topic that people want to know about, and that Wikipedia could be a source of knowledge for, if more effort was put into it. Computer-ergonomics (talk) 05:29, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep, meets all rules and regs. The more notable dress articles on Wikipedia the better (AOC's tax-the-rich dress comes to mind as a notable dress not represented in the encyclopedia's dress collection). Randy Kryn (talk) 04:38, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.