Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elizabeth, Lady Thurles


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. I'm closing this as Keep based on the sources newly found and also the work done on the article by the nominator. I understand if these additions are not considered sufficient, there might be a further visit to AFD but given this particular discussion, I see a consensus to Keep the article. Liz Read! Talk! 23:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Elizabeth, Lady Thurles

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Fails WP:GNG. All the mentions of the subject in the cited reliable sources in the Wikipedia article are trivial. I tried find to additional sources. There seems to be no monograph for the subject anywhere and surely neither in the Dictionary of National Biography (DNB), nor the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (ODNB), nor the Dictionary of Irish Biography (DIB). She is mentioned in genealogical sources such as Burke, Debrett and Cokayne. She is mainly known as the mother of James Butler, 1st Duke of Ormond and therefore mentioned in works about him. All these mentions are trivial. On the other hand the article was created in 2012 and has survived until now. I wonder on which merit. Johannes Schade (talk) 07:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2023 October 19.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 07:24, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Royalty and nobility, Ireland,  and England.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:35, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: It is difficult to find independent sources about women of this period. It is not unusual for details to be drawn from articles about male relatives. Further inline citations would make for improvement.--Ipigott (talk) 09:56, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The same WP:GNG, WP:BIO, and in this case WP:BASIC criteria apply to women as to men. She married and had children, but that does not make her notable. Johannes Schade (talk) 19:18, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep: Wikipedia has a long practice of articles on mothers of political figures. Martha Ellen Young Truman is of an era when a woman's main claim to fame was who they gave birth to.  In her case, future US President Harry Truman. Many of the same are at Category:Mothers of presidents of the United States. And articles on the mothers of political leaders are not limited to US famous mothers. The hand that rocked the cradle is the same hand that raised a political leader. — Maile  (talk) 23:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear Maile since you are an administrator, your intervention probably is a final decision on the matter. However, how can being the mother of somebody well-known make a woman notable if WP:INVALIDBIO says "That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being a spouse or child, is not a reason for a standalone article on A"? With all respect due, Johannes Schade (talk) 07:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Johannes Schade, I'm not intervening here. I was only adding my input, which here carries no more weight than anyone else who posts here. On something like this, an admin is only adding one more opinion. An un-involved editor will eventually close this AFD, based on all the input above. Your individual input carries just as much weight as anyone else who posts here. — Maile  (talk) 13:22, 20 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep - it appears more sources WP:NEXIST to help develop the article and support notability, e.g. via GBooks, Writings on Irish History 1996, Irish Committee of Historical Sciences, p. 70: "Elizabeth, Lady Thurles her ancestory and her role in the Rebellion of 1641. In Thurles : the cathedral town, pp 41-5 (1989)." And in "Female alliances in Cromwellian Ireland: the social and political network of Elizabeth Butler, marchioness of Ormonde" (her daughter-in-law), Irish Historical Studies (2021), 45 (167), 22–42), a footnote at p. 42 includes: "On Lady Thurles’ experiences, see O’Dowd, ‘Women and war’, p. 105", and this source also mentions her in context at p. 41. "The Poyntz Family of Acton" by the Poyntzpass and District Local History Society (JSTOR) is not easily accessible but may also have further information and context. Beccaynr (talk) 00:51, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per Maile66. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.