Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ellen Schreiber (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  Sandstein  06:24, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Ellen Schreiber
AfDs for this article: 
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Completely non-notable author in a non-sourced article that I can not find sources for (beyond fansites). That she has had a few books reviewed does not notability prove; many non-notable authors have been published, and, per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, we can't have a collection of every author who's ever published a book through a non-vanity-press here, unless some further kind of notability can be established. St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 20:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Can someone with access to some of the pay-per-view news articles access them and source them appropriately into the wiki entry? I'm finding quite a few articles that look pretty meaty, but are hidden behind paywalls so I can't source them properly.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  — Frankie (talk) 18:26, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: Here's some news sources:
 * — Northamerica1000(talk) 02:48, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * As notability doesn't mean I have to be able to verify the sources, there may be some there, but a notable author, one would think, would have more than a few mentions in what is mostly a local or single city's newspaper (I'm assuming her hometown) about, of all things, book signings (a notable author would have, you know, meatier stuff written about them, like the copious crap about JK Rowling or Stephen King), but it appears that this is a borderline case - not enough for me to retract my nomination, but (seemingly) borderline enough that rational people could disagree on whether it is fit for inclusion or not. St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 15:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * — Northamerica1000(talk) 02:48, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * As notability doesn't mean I have to be able to verify the sources, there may be some there, but a notable author, one would think, would have more than a few mentions in what is mostly a local or single city's newspaper (I'm assuming her hometown) about, of all things, book signings (a notable author would have, you know, meatier stuff written about them, like the copious crap about JK Rowling or Stephen King), but it appears that this is a borderline case - not enough for me to retract my nomination, but (seemingly) borderline enough that rational people could disagree on whether it is fit for inclusion or not. St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 15:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * — Northamerica1000(talk) 02:48, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * As notability doesn't mean I have to be able to verify the sources, there may be some there, but a notable author, one would think, would have more than a few mentions in what is mostly a local or single city's newspaper (I'm assuming her hometown) about, of all things, book signings (a notable author would have, you know, meatier stuff written about them, like the copious crap about JK Rowling or Stephen King), but it appears that this is a borderline case - not enough for me to retract my nomination, but (seemingly) borderline enough that rational people could disagree on whether it is fit for inclusion or not. St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 15:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: I'm thinking that it might be better to merge any pertinent references and data into the Vampire Kisses (series) article and have the author's name just redirect to the series page. Schreiber seems to be predominantly known for her Vampire Kisses series, so this might be the best way to salvage anything usable.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 10:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not opposed to that; it is the best solution proposed so far, if notability for the series can be established (I've not checked it for better sourcing today, and I was unable to find sources myself, so I left it to you to salvage; I'm assuming, just as I'm a whiz at finding certain religion-related references, it's not a matter of general searches, but it's a matter of knowing which dark corners of the internet or cobwebbed parts of the library [well, not really cobwebbed in a seminary] to look in). What's funny (or ironic) is, that, as you said above (or on another AfD), she may sell "insanely well and be somewhat known", but that fame extends nowhere beyond what I must assume is a very small subculture of some sort, as I am an aficionado of literature - especially fantasy fiction - and have never heard of any of them nor their works that I proposed for AfD; this, I assume and propose as the reason for why they do not meet general notability guidelines, is, that while they may be notable in some very narrow section of fan-base (for that matter, even 'shipping fanfiction authors are notable to some people), they are not "generally notable" as the WP:N points out. St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 10:40, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, she's pretty much "insanely well known" when it comes to YA tweeny bopper UF novels. She's well known in that genre (with either extreme scorn or extreme joy), but not as much so outside the genre. Like Lora Leigh, she sells well and is well known in her genre, but that doesn't exactly translate into notability outside of the genre or into news coverage. Schreiber sells well enough to get on bestseller lists, but that doesn't give it automatic notability- it just makes it more likely that you'll find sources. I figure that most of the sources shown above will be 99.9% likely to talk about the Vampire Kisses series more so than anything else, so if they're more than just a 1-2 paragraph article and/or a mention of a book signing, they could help show enough notability for the series to where a merge and redirect would be doable. I've improved the general article sources a little, although I'm still searching. It's just slow going because I'm alternating between this and studying for finals.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 16:26, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Anywho, if the book series article is lacking and is put up for deletion and I'm not able to get on and put in good enough sourcing then I'm OK with it being deleted. There's a lot of sources that can be added, but nothing that I have access to that shows that "slam bang, without a doubt" notability that I like to have for articles. I might userfy a copy in case more sources become available for the book series, if nobody minds.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 16:41, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as me, I'm of the opinion that the above sources satisfy WP:N for the series, but not the author. As of now, I see no reason to nominate the article about the books for deletion, as they have received independent media coverage (far more than the author has, which is only mentioned in connection with the books). So, I vote Delete as I originally did, with redirect to Vampire Kisses.St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 16:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Vampire Kisses (series). There's not enough coverage for the author by herself, but there is enough for her VK series for this to be a redirect.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 08:37, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you want to do the honors of nominating Vampire Kisses (novel) for deletion, or should I? I was initially thinking redirect, but there's no reason for there to be a redirect with the (novel) at the end. If it was just the title then I could see using it as a redirect, but there's really no need for that specific title as a redirect.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 08:40, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I nominated for redirect and merge with a link pointing back to this discussion at Articles_for_deletion/Vampire_Kisses_(novel). St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 17:44, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:14, 4 May 2012 (UTC)




 * Strong Keep First of all, VK is a NYT Best Seler: . Second, there are many more book reviews--the ones cited seem to have been only from the first p. of Google News Archive, and GN has about 90 in all, including Magazine of Fantasy & SF [http%3A%2F%2Fgoliath.ecnext.com%2Fpremium%2F0199%2F0199-5756071.html&ei=KaaoT63tO-Xx6QHR-pScBA&usg=AFQjCNE9txfLrbnmfG6msugefYqMNEygJw&sig2=Om5R1ry8ItO2vvUqv_g_qw]m] SchoolLibrary J.  [http:www.schoollibraryjournal.com%2Farticle%2FCA6615925.html&ei=KaaoT63tO-Xx6QHR-pScBA&usg=AFQjCNG2w9hOWPkSHbc0zuIukzgJkvUImQ&sig2=7iMMiYQ12gh3ZX13B3koiQ] & a number of non-US fantasy magazines also. Having multiple books with substantial reviews is exactly what we mean by notability for an author--the reviews are the RSs. That the reviews aren't a fluke is shown by the library holdings" 6 books of hers have over one thousand holding libraries each in worldcat  VK  alone has 1770.,  She has also at least 3 books, Once in a full moon,  "Teenage mermaid" &  Comedy girl outside the VK series that have over five hundred library holding each. that's enough to show notability for both the author and the series and possibly even separate titles. Additionally, translations, especially multiple translations into multiple languages indicate notability -- from WorldCat, VK & several other books has been  translated into Dutch, German, Japanese, Czech, French, Spanish , Danish & Italian   The delete views are apparently based on the idea that popular formula books for young teen agers  are inherently too trivial to be notable, regardless of the evidence. Authors are notable for writing notable books--what on earth else would they be notable for? It's only when an author has just one notable book that the question arises of whether it's worth more than one article, and then the author is better place, because the author may write more books & if the first is a success generally does do so, whereas the book article is rarely likely to be expanded.  DGG ( talk ) 04:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Both   and     have bio info on Schreiber. duffbeerforme (talk) 07:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.