Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emma E. Booker Elementary School


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. or really, Keep/Merge as there is emerging consensus that this could be included within Sarasota's district or Booker herself especially with the added information from Cunard et al. What there isn't is consensus to delete any of this content, and where it should live can be handled editorially. Star  Mississippi  03:15, 11 February 2022 (UTC) Amending for clarity, emphasis on the could. I leave further discussion on whether it happens and where to interested editors. Star  Mississippi  15:11, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Emma E. Booker Elementary School

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Should be merged into Sarasota, Florida as we do for other schools. It doesn't appear that the school is independently notable beyond the events of 9/11. Rockstone Send me a message!  02:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  Rockstone  Send me a message!  02:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 02:59, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 03:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 03:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. Articles not related to President George W. Bush being at the school when he made his first public comments about the September 11 attacks:  The article notes: "Emma E. Booker Elementary School might have the county's first 11-month curriculum this fall, but state budget cuts could kill the plan. Since September, Booker Elementary School officials, staff and parents have brainstormed a plan to add 24 days to the school calendar and to spread summer vacation time throughout the year into shorter, more frequent breaks."   The article notes: "Cheers from a a screaming throng of students and a steady stream of pump-up music could be heard from the parking lot of Emma E. Booker Elementary School Monday afternoon. ... It was the third, fourth and fifth graders, who will begin taking state tests on Tuesday, which were the object of all the commotion. With months of preparation and practice behind them, Tuesday is game day for testing, and Booker Elementary did what you do before a big game: They held a raucous pep rally."   The article notes: "Students showed off their scientific minds while spending quality family time at Emma E. Booker Elementary School as part of the school's 10th annual Family Fun Night."  <li> The article notes: "Students at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota go to school 196 days a year, instead of 180. The extra 16 days of class mean that the school's 700 students have a scant six weeks of summer; they will return July 31. But neither students nor faculty seem to mind." </li> <li> The article notes: "Kafale Rivers could feel his knees shaking when he walked into Emma E. Booker Elementary's media center. ... Despite his preparation, Kafale, 11, was sheepish when he met actor and early learning advocate LeVar Burton." </li> <li> The article notes: "Twenty-four young authors from second through fifth grade showed off their creativity and were honored May 10 at Emma E. Booker Elementary School." </li> <li> The article notes: "Parents, teachers and administrators have high hopes that Emma E. Booker Elementary School will be the district's first year-round school." </li> <li> The article notes: "Two parents question the accuracy of information issued Tuesday by Sarasota County school officials about alleged mistreatment of two children at the Emma E. Booker Elementary School last week." </li> <li> The article notes: "Sarasota County school officials are under pressure from black activists for the second time in a week to reverse a decision at their new Emma E. Booker Elementary School." </li> <li> The article notes: "The white principal and PTA president at the new Emma E. Booker Elementary haven't been true to their school, a group of black parents and activists say." </li> <li> The article notes: "Students at Emma E. Booker Elementary School have tested strong in math and writing on the FCAT exam, but weak in their reading skills." </li> </ol></li> <li>Articles about President George W. Bush being at the school when he made his first public comments about the September 11 attacks:<ol> <li> The article notes: "More than 80 percent of its students are on free or reduced lunches and Booker has earned a C grade from the state for the last few years. Yet it was at this "average" school populated with many children from struggling families that President Bush arrived on Sept. 11, 2001, to talk about his education initiative, "No Child Left Behind." And it was here, surrounded by students and teachers, where Bush first learned that America was under attack by terrorists. It was from a microphone at Booker that the world first heard Bush call for peace." </li> <li> The article notes: "President George W. Bush told students at Emma E. Booker Elementary School that he will always remember being with them during the Sept. 11 attacks five years ago. ... He recalled sitting in Room 301 at the school, listening to Sandra Daniels' second-grade class read from "The Pet Goat" when his former chief of staff whispered to him, "America is under attack" after the second plane hit the World Trade Center." </li> <li> The article notes: "Emma E. Booker Elementary School students recall getting out of bed early and going through metal detectors. They were eager to hear President Bush talk about reading and to shake his hand.  ... Booker Elementary is creating an exhibit with memories of that fateful day. The display in the office features two scrapbooks by students, pictures taken by White House photographers and a thank-you note to the school from President Bush." </li> <li> The article notes: "Wednesday was a day for several of those students, along with their former teacher, to get back together at Emma E. Booker Elementary School and talk about the upcoming fifth anniversary of the terror attacks. It was part media circus, part catharsis, as the group sat in front of cameras and talked with reporters about that September morning and how it changed their lives." </li> </ol> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Emma E. Booker Elementary School to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:32, 3 February 2022 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * The lead of Notability (organizations and companies) says: "The scope of this guideline covers all groups of people organized together for a purpose with the exception of non-profit educational institutions, religions or sects, and sports teams." Notability (organizations and companies) says: "All universities, colleges and schools, including high schools, middle schools, primary (elementary) schools, and schools that only provide a support to mainstream education must either satisfy the notability guidelines for organizations, the general notability guideline, or both. For-profit educational organizations and institutions are considered commercial organizations and must satisfy those criteria. (See also WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES)" As a non-profit educational institution, Emma E. Booker Elementary School passes Notability and Notability (organizations and companies). Emma E. Booker Elementary School has received substantial sustained coverage in the Sarasota Herald-Tribune and The Tampa Tribune. Cunard (talk) 09:32, 3 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete I'm not seeing any "significant coverage" of the school from the references Cunard provided. Most (or all) of them are local, trivial, and WP:MILL coverage. The 8 articles about George Bush being there in particular are clearly because of and about George Bush, not the school. Literally any school George Bush went to and made statements about 911 at would have been covered in the news. Just like every ice cream shop in America that Joe Biden buys an ice cream cone from gets mentioned in news articles, Etc. Etc. The places don't matter, the person who is visiting them does. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:04, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Emma E. Booker Elementary School is a non-profit educational institution which is required to pass Notability. There is no requirement for the references to be non-local or non-WP:MILL but it has received plenty of coverage that is non-WP:MILL. Emma E. Booker Elementary School has received significant coverage in the regional newspaper The Tampa Tribune about its 11-month curriculum. In addition to the George W. Bush coverage, the school has received significant coverage about the plans for it to become "the district's first year-round school", students doing state testing, and events it puts on. That this school has received sustained significant coverage over several decades strongly establishes it is notable. Cunard (talk) 11:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Ignore the non-local coverage part of what I said, there still isn't significant, in-depth coverage in multiple sources. One reason as I'm sure you know is that multiple stories from a single outlet only counts as one reference. So the fact that The Tampa Tribune did 15 news stories about it doesn't really matter, since it's only a single reference. Outside of that though from what I can tell the stories are not significant coverage anyway. Like the first one is about how they might have the county's first 11-month curriculum, but then maybe not because of state budget cuts. Beyond just being purely based on speculation most of it is about the state budget issues. Not the school. To pick one more, there's "Teacher discipline concerns leaders". Which is literally just about an assistant superintendent deciding if they are going to punish a white school teacher for making a derisive remark about a black pupil. Again, the article is purely based on speculation and doesn't discuss the school directly or in-depth. So right there is two news articles that don't even discuss the school except in an extremely superficial way and based purely on speculation. "Blacks say school color flap dilutes history" is much of the same. As well as being an interview. "Booker benefits from longer year" starts out by interviewing a third grader and goes on to discuss the school adding 16 days to the semester, "Jamese Bryant, a fifth-grader, said he likes being in school because he gets to spend time with his friends. "I want short summers," Jamese said." Maybe there is no non-WP:MILL requirement, but I'm sure you would agree that Jamese wanting shorter summers isn't really in-depth, significant, direct coverage of the school. Let alone notability providing content for an article about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:48, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * There is significant coverage in two publications: the Sarasota Herald-Tribune and The Tampa Tribune. I do not agree that the 1993 article "Budget cuts could kill modified school" is not primarily about the school. Of the 485-word article, only 99 words are not directly about the school. The article discusses the plan to extend the school year and how it would affect the students. The 2000 article "Booker benefits from longer year" from the Sarasota Herald-Tribune was published after the plan to extend the school year was implemented. It contains extensive discussion of the school: "Students at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota go to school 196 days a year, instead of 180. The extra 16 days of class mean that the school's 700 students have a scant six weeks of summer; they will return July 31. But neither students nor faculty seem to mind. ... In the spring and the fall, just before seasonal vacations, teachers spend eight days on intensive, theme-based curricula focusing on such topics as medieval times, the ocean or recycling. The sessions give students a reprieve from the traditional reading, writing and math classes, offering field trips and fun projects. ...  The school has had a 196-day school year for seven years, but the calendar has been emphasized more recently because of Emma E.'s difficulty in raising test scores to average levels. This year the school has radically changed its curriculum to focus on reading and writing in every subject and to introduce skills necessary for tests as early as possible." The 1990 article "Blacks say school color flap dilutes history" also provides extensive coverage of the school: "Freshly embossed Bulldog T-shirts, which cost the PTA its entire $1,200 treasury, have been discarded -- in belated recognition by the school's new administration of Booker's rich legacy as a center of education and progress for Sarasota's black community. The principal at the new Booker, which inherited the title of a longtime Newtown grammar school named for Sarasota County's first black principal, said he didn't realize the switch would strike such a raw nerve. ... Enrollment at the new Booker is more than four times that of the old 260-pupil Booker, which closed as a grammar school last June and became part of the Booker Middle and High school complex on Orange Avenue North. Many of the new Booker pupils are white and live in north Sarasota County subdivisions between Interstate 75 and Sarasota Bay, said Fitz-Harris. The new Booker has a 55 percent black student body.  ...  The school's recently formed and predominantly white PTA decided in October to conduct a vote among pupils to determine if they wanted to keep the purple- and-gold Tornado of the old Booker -- or to choose a new mascot and school colors from a list provided." The sources discuss the school's history, its curriculum, its mascot and school colors, its school year length, and its controversies. There is more than enough information to meet Notability. Cunard (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I guess it comes down to how you define the word "significant." For me it means "sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention." Which I wouldn't consider things like school colors, how many weeks their semesters are, or some teacher "maybe" getting reprimanded for calling a student a guerilla. All schools have have "controversies", school colors, and school semesters go for a particular amount of time with literally every school. So there's nothing "important or worthy of attention" about any of that. Going by some of the things you've mentioned in this other AfDs though it seems like you have zero bar on the lower end for what qualifies as significant coverage and your definition of "significant" is literally anything. Like there could be a trivial local news story about someone graffitiing a penis on a school bathroom wall and you'd be arguing with me about why that is an important thing, something we should all be paying attention, and is therefore worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia and proves the school is notable. You might as well throw out the whole concept of significant coverage at that point, let alone notability. Even if you disagree though, WP:NOTDIRECTORY is clear that Wikipedia is not a "Simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopedic merit." Things like school color, mascot, and basic historical information like what year the school was founded, are the epitome of simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopedic merit. Especially when it comes to Elementary Schools. I'm sure you'd have some convoluted reason why something that's literally just "the schools colors are green and blue" has contextual information and encyclopedic merit though, but again at that point you might as well just say to hell with significant coverage and notability as concepts in the first. Personally I think a better route would be for you to admit you have zero or almost non-existing standards, me to say I have some, and for us to not get in these discussions anymore. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:14, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Notability and Notability (organizations and companies) do not define "significant" as meaning "sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention". As defined in Notability, "significant coverage" means: "'Significant coverage' addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material." Discussion about a school's history, its curriculum, its mascot and school colors, its school year length, and its controversies "addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content" so the school does meet the guideline. The coverage in these sources is not about "someone graffitiing a penis on a school bathroom wall" which by itself would not establish notability. The coverage about the school colors is about a very serious topic: It involves race in the United States and what activists say is the "purg[ing] [from] the school of its historical identity": "Principal Brian Fitz-Harris canceled the display when blacks protested a decision to change the purple-and-gold Booker Tornado to a red-and-black Bulldog after more than 50 years. Freshly embossed Bulldog T-shirts, which cost the PTA its entire $1,200 treasury, have been discarded -- in belated recognition by the school's new administration of Booker's rich legacy as a center of education and progress for Sarasota's black community. ... But black activist Ed James II said the switch was intended as a first step by Fitz-Harris and PTA President Susan Rogers to purge the school of its historical identity." Cunard (talk) 23:32, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Where have I ever said that for something to be non-trivial it has to be the main topic of the source material? Obviously significant coverage is beyond a trivial mention and below the subject being the main topic of the article, but it's ridiculous to act like "Emma E. Booker Elementary School's mascot is a ferret" is a automatically significant coverage "because it does not need to be the main topic of the source material" or whatever. As far as the thing about the "activists", I think that it might be worth mentioning as a part of a broader article on racial discrimination in the school system, but it would be undue weight if that's solely what the article is based on. Not to mention probably create an attack article. It doesn't do the subject or readers of Wikipedia any just to have an article that is just about how some teachers of the school said some borderline racist crap. Maybe if it could be shown to be a broader, systemic issue, but there's zero evidence that is the case. Otherwise, we are just slandering a single teacher for saying something stupid and like the school supports that type of behavior when they don't. Outside of that I don't really care about an "activists" opinion, whatever that means. There is no clause in the notability guidelines that something is notable if there's a controversy involving it and "activists" aren't experts in anything. So their opinions are less then worthless, at least as far as this process goes. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment I agree that happening to be the school that Bush was at on 9/11 isn't enough to define its significance. What *does* surprise me, though, is that there is no article for Emma E. Booker herself. The school, a normal elementary school as far as I can tell, is unremarkable but Booker herself has an interesting story. The first paragraph of this article is about her, and I have just added her to the WikiProject Women in Red, especially since this is Black History Month. Lamona (talk) 00:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "Thanks. Having an article for Emma E. Booker is a good idea. Perhaps we can just mention the school there if one gets created before the AfD is closed. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The issue here is there's a Booker High School and a Booker Middle School - all within Newtown. There is a definite article to be made with Emma E. Booker here. There's also a lot of context here with segregation and school integration with these schools for the Sarasota metropolitan area. As I mentioned below, people have held onto the idea that this school is known on a national level because of Bush and 9/11. – The Grid  ( talk )  15:54, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * IMO you could maybe argue that the topic of segregation and school integration in Florida is a notable topic that an article on could include a mention of these schools in, I don't think that means these specific schools are notable on their own though. Especially not if the articles are based purely on the segregation issue. Outside of that I'd be interested to know which people have held onto the idea that this school is known on a national level because of Bush and 9/11 and how them holding onto that "idea" equates to notability.


 * The idea that the school is known nationally because of Bush and 9/11 is laughable anyway. I bet most people off the street can't tell you what school Bush discussed 9/11 at. Even people from Florida. It's an extremely obscure fact that literally no one cares about or remembers at this point. Probably not even a good percentage of people in Newtown. Honestly, the same goes for 9/11 in general. I was in a college class a few years ago and a good number of the students in the class didn't even know what 9/11 was when the teacher brought it up. So I doubt most people know about this school in relation to it. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:35, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I get what you are saying to a degree but Sarasota County seems central to some of events leading up to 9/11. Two of the hijackers did their training in Venice at Huffman Aviation. Obviously, the focus of any article shouldn't be a coatrack for another event. I see the elementary school article to at least have improvements on notability. – The Grid  ( talk )  15:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hhhmmm, I wasn't aware that two of the high jackers had trained in the area. It's an interesting side fact, but as far as I know George Bush being at the school that day was pre-planned and had nothing to do with the high jackers. He didn't even know about the World Trade Centers being attacked until he was already there. So I doubt the visit had anything to do with the high jackers or anything related to 9/11. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:52, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep There's sufficient information from what Cunard provided and in the article. I'm surprised this is being argued because people are getting hung up on thinking it's only known due to 9/11. Also,WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. – The Grid  ( talk )  05:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment -- all of the evidence provided that this school is independently notable would support articles on other run-of-the-mill elementary schools, which we don't do. -- Rockstone  Send me a message!  05:10, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Schooloutcomes suggests we should delete this article, full stop. It is an elemntary school. That it gets mentioned in a local article about children about to take state tests, that the President of the US happened to choose to make a visit here, which would have gotten virtually no coverage except for unrelated events that happened while the president was at this location, and a few other routine coverage examples do not make this institution notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The first point is Most elementary (primary) and middle schools that don't source a clear claim to notability usually get merged or redirected to the school district authority that operates them (generally the case in North America) or the lowest level locality (elsewhere or where there is no governing body).
 * Where are you getting the suggestion they get deleted? – The Grid  ( talk )  14:07, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Would you not consider merging the article a form of deletion? The point is that this article page should not exist. -- Rockstone  Send me a message!  02:05, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not, a merge is an alternative to deletion. Your point has really not been expanded since the start of the AfD and please note you suggested a merge versus deletion. – The Grid  ( talk )  03:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep thanks to the sources shared by Cuanrd. WP:MILL is just an essay and can easily be countered by WP:NOTPAPER. Passes WP:GNG. I don't think merging the content here into the already lengthy Sarasota, Florida article would benefit our readers. Better to keep it easily to find and read on a seperate article. NemesisAT (talk) 13:20, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If we had to merge the content or a possible ATD, Sarasota County Public Schools is probably the better target but the current article is a list of schools. – The Grid  ( talk )  14:11, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - Fundamentally, the subject meets WP:GNG. There are many boring articles on Wikipedia that I don't like! Suriname0 (talk) 16:25, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep As per WP:GNG and common sense. If the school that George Bush was at during the September 11 attacks, which received lots of international attention, doesn't confer notability, what can? &#160; Discant  X  08:36, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I added one more source, which I don't believe was in Cunard's list. There is enough coverage outside of Bush and the September 11 attacks that can give the school notability. This article has better sourcing and notability than so many Wikipedia articles that it's almost laughable that it was brought to AFD. &#160; Discant  X  09:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.